My old friend, Tony, thinks so...
I think he's basically right. Whenever any partisan discussion is reduced to comparisons to Hitler or Stalin, no one is really arguing anything substantive. They are merely venting frustration. I will, however, disagree with the notion that it always comes from a place of hate. One can lazily and clumsily throw comparisons around without it being about hate. Sometimes, it's simply cliched rhetoric meant to score some kind of debater's points.
What's more rational in discussing Obama's politics and philosophy is to compare him to Woodrow Wilson, FDR and at the very extreme, Benito Mussolini. Now, I know what you're thinking. "Isn't comparing Obama to Mussolini the same as comparing him to Hitler?" Not really. It would be ignorant to lump Mussolini in with Hitler and Stalin for the same reason it's ignorant to lump Obama in with them. Mussolini was a fascist, but not a Nazi. His regime was nowhere near as obsessed with race and Hitler's, and though it was oppressive, it wasn't nearly as oppressive as either Stalin's or Hitler's. Nor as deadly.
What you have to look at is Mussolini's pre-war domestic agenda and how popular he was with American progressives. To Mussolini, the man who coined the term, totalitarianism wasn't a gray, dystopian vision of jackbooted thugs and thought control. It was a Utopian vision of self-sacrifice, socialism and national cooperation. Where he differed with other European socialists and communists was on the technical aspects of how to achieve it. He disagreed with the Bolsheviks as violently as he disagreed with the capitalists and everyone who didn't stand for his "third way" style of socialism. The bottom line was that under Italian fascism, the state became the end all be all of existence. American progressives, pined for the day when they could attack social problems like poverty and ignorance as proactively as Mussolini.
As a point of comparison, look at the way liberal pundits like Tom Friedman constantly praise China for it's ability to "get things done". Obama himself "has told people that it would be so much easier to be the president of China. As one official put it, 'No one is scrutinizing Hu Jintao’s words in Tahrir Square.'" China is far less communist today and far more like fascist Italy. So, that kind of comparison, while fraught with all kinds of rhetorical dangers, is within the realm of good faith in a rational discussion.
What's completely fair and even crucial is comparing Obama to two of our most controversial progressive presidents, Woodrow Wilson and FDR. His economic policies are nothing more than warmed over New Dealism from FDR which was itself nothing more than warmed over "war socialism" from Wilson. Under both presidents, individual Americans who weren't direct beneficiaries of government interventions and relief found themselves far less free and prosperous than they had been when government was supposedly leaving them to drown. Because they saw the Constitution as an obstacle to overcome, Wilson and FDR greatly expanded the role of the executive branch. It was an outdated document insufficient to answer the needs of a country deep into the industrial era. Life moved faster, so the government needed to move faster.
This is where people tend to get a little crazy. While it's true that Obama is a part of the progressive tradition of expanding executive authority (look at the EPA for just one example), we still have a constitution to slow him down. And it's not until he clearly subverts it with an equivalent to Hitler's Enabling Act, or Stalin's "Yezhovshchina" that comparisons to them make any sense.
And there's a whole lot of Wilson, FDR and even Nixon before that happens. So, while comparisons to Hitler and Stalin aren't appropriate, there's no reason not to warn our liberal brethren about the dangers of left-wing fascism because, to be accurate, fascism in America is left-wing. It has nothing in common with American conservatism or libertarianism. That's an argument both rational and necessary.
My Mind is Clean
Quote
Obama compared to Stalin Lenin and Hitler…Really!!! The comparing of these men who orchestrated the death of millions to Obama is absolutely absurd. To not like the President is the right of any individual but to make such comparisons must come from a place of hate. If one feels that his policies are socialistic then why not compare him to other leaders in history that have those same views but without the blood stains on their resume. Supporters of these comparisons cowardly wear political masks and costumes and play the role of political adversaries to hide the true nature and the roots of their hate. You Haters you can hide behind propaganda, change your costumes a million times, and call it whatever you want but your signature ignorance will always give you away.
I think he's basically right. Whenever any partisan discussion is reduced to comparisons to Hitler or Stalin, no one is really arguing anything substantive. They are merely venting frustration. I will, however, disagree with the notion that it always comes from a place of hate. One can lazily and clumsily throw comparisons around without it being about hate. Sometimes, it's simply cliched rhetoric meant to score some kind of debater's points.
What's more rational in discussing Obama's politics and philosophy is to compare him to Woodrow Wilson, FDR and at the very extreme, Benito Mussolini. Now, I know what you're thinking. "Isn't comparing Obama to Mussolini the same as comparing him to Hitler?" Not really. It would be ignorant to lump Mussolini in with Hitler and Stalin for the same reason it's ignorant to lump Obama in with them. Mussolini was a fascist, but not a Nazi. His regime was nowhere near as obsessed with race and Hitler's, and though it was oppressive, it wasn't nearly as oppressive as either Stalin's or Hitler's. Nor as deadly.
What you have to look at is Mussolini's pre-war domestic agenda and how popular he was with American progressives. To Mussolini, the man who coined the term, totalitarianism wasn't a gray, dystopian vision of jackbooted thugs and thought control. It was a Utopian vision of self-sacrifice, socialism and national cooperation. Where he differed with other European socialists and communists was on the technical aspects of how to achieve it. He disagreed with the Bolsheviks as violently as he disagreed with the capitalists and everyone who didn't stand for his "third way" style of socialism. The bottom line was that under Italian fascism, the state became the end all be all of existence. American progressives, pined for the day when they could attack social problems like poverty and ignorance as proactively as Mussolini.
As a point of comparison, look at the way liberal pundits like Tom Friedman constantly praise China for it's ability to "get things done". Obama himself "has told people that it would be so much easier to be the president of China. As one official put it, 'No one is scrutinizing Hu Jintao’s words in Tahrir Square.'" China is far less communist today and far more like fascist Italy. So, that kind of comparison, while fraught with all kinds of rhetorical dangers, is within the realm of good faith in a rational discussion.
What's completely fair and even crucial is comparing Obama to two of our most controversial progressive presidents, Woodrow Wilson and FDR. His economic policies are nothing more than warmed over New Dealism from FDR which was itself nothing more than warmed over "war socialism" from Wilson. Under both presidents, individual Americans who weren't direct beneficiaries of government interventions and relief found themselves far less free and prosperous than they had been when government was supposedly leaving them to drown. Because they saw the Constitution as an obstacle to overcome, Wilson and FDR greatly expanded the role of the executive branch. It was an outdated document insufficient to answer the needs of a country deep into the industrial era. Life moved faster, so the government needed to move faster.
This is where people tend to get a little crazy. While it's true that Obama is a part of the progressive tradition of expanding executive authority (look at the EPA for just one example), we still have a constitution to slow him down. And it's not until he clearly subverts it with an equivalent to Hitler's Enabling Act, or Stalin's "Yezhovshchina" that comparisons to them make any sense.
And there's a whole lot of Wilson, FDR and even Nixon before that happens. So, while comparisons to Hitler and Stalin aren't appropriate, there's no reason not to warn our liberal brethren about the dangers of left-wing fascism because, to be accurate, fascism in America is left-wing. It has nothing in common with American conservatism or libertarianism. That's an argument both rational and necessary.
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Iron Man 3 Don't be sad, he can make more suits.
Lincoln Crack for historians.
Bully I'm sorry, but I've never seen a more clueless bunch of parents and--especially--educators.
Fat Head If you want to regain some intelligence after watching Supersize Me, watch this.
The Hobbit Not a movie. An achievement.
Red Dawn Uh, those North Koreans look pretty well fed. Almost as well fed as the Chinese. Good explosions.
Expendables 2 Someone had the genius idea to film the Random Facts About Chuck Norris. And kudos to Chuck because the film had almost no cursing.
Lincoln Brilliant. Funny. Sad. Daniel Day Lewis should get an Oscar by Constitutional amendment.
2016: Obama's America Great for high and low info voters. Not much new for the high info voter, but some good theoretical discussion. Dinesh is still a punk for agreeing to an interview, then ducking my harder questions.
The Dark Knight Rises: Best treatment of the hero theme ever. Great re-imagining of the Russian Revolution, also.
The Amazing Spiderman: Better than the original. Here's why: Emma Stone way better than Kirsten Dunce. The kid who plays Spidey is way better than Toby McGuire. Closer to the comic from what I understand. No silly Power Rangers mask on villain. I like how they keep him in high school. Martin Sheen gets shot.
Three Stooges: Turning Moe loose on the cast of Jersey Shore? Masterful.
The Avengers: The only word for how awesome this movie is: Dude.
Winter's Bone: Jennifer Lawrence deserves an Oscar for just reading this script. Let's just say don't stray too far out of Branson if you're ever up in the Ozarks.
The Hunger Games: The Running Man for pre-teen girls. But with more stabbing.
Transformers: Dark Side of the Moon: A jackhammer of an action movie. Wildly xceeded my low expectations.
Super 8: Thank you Misters Spielberg and Abrams. The former may be a pinko commie lib, but he knows what he's doing. The latter may be a jerk around artist when he's got years to tell a story. But give him just a couple of hours, and he's dead on. Great, great old school 80s era Spielberg flick.
True Grit: I didn't want to like it out of respect for The Duke, but dang it if those Cohen brothers aren't masterful.
X-Men First Class: Yet another home run from Marvel. It's funny, the first time I saw Magneto's helmet, I thought "That would look great on Kevin Bacon."
The Hangover 2: Um. Yeah. Sick. My sainted wife picked this one. I'm sure the prospect of seeing Bradley Cooper's Magnum PI caliber chest had nothing to do with it.Thor: On par with Iron Man, which means top-notch. Jeremy Shockey is great as Thor. What? That's not Jeremy Shockey? Well, he should sue then.
Battle: LASo, that's what happened on the ground on Independence Day. Seriously, very good movie.
Tangled: A Burkean mix of aesthetics and respect for tradition. In other words, it was pretty cool.
Voyage of the Dawn Treader: Spectacular. Some visuals that are so beautiful they almost hurt to look at.
Tron: Legacy: I don't know why they had to mess with perfection.
The A-Team: I wasn't a believer until stuff blew up. Then I was, like, "yeah!"Waiting for Superman: I haven't been this disappointed since I found out that To Kill a Mockingbird wasn't a documentary.
The Book of Eli: Had the potential for one of the greatest endings in movie history but pissed it away with one scene.
She's Out of My League: Is there a RomCom factory somewhere and can we blow it up in the A-Team sequal?
Waking Sleeping Beauty: I liked the Pixar Story much better. It's basically the same movie about movies.
Clash of the Titans: Yelling "Release the Kraken!" when you go into the men's room is still funny. But it has been funny since the 80's, so...
Date Night: Not your average RomCom. I think this is the movie Alfred Hitchcock was trying to make when he slapped North by Northwest together.
Iron Man 2: Keep them coming. Please.
Lincoln Crack for historians.
Bully I'm sorry, but I've never seen a more clueless bunch of parents and--especially--educators.
Fat Head If you want to regain some intelligence after watching Supersize Me, watch this.
The Hobbit Not a movie. An achievement.
Red Dawn Uh, those North Koreans look pretty well fed. Almost as well fed as the Chinese. Good explosions.
Expendables 2 Someone had the genius idea to film the Random Facts About Chuck Norris. And kudos to Chuck because the film had almost no cursing.
Lincoln Brilliant. Funny. Sad. Daniel Day Lewis should get an Oscar by Constitutional amendment.
2016: Obama's America Great for high and low info voters. Not much new for the high info voter, but some good theoretical discussion. Dinesh is still a punk for agreeing to an interview, then ducking my harder questions.
The Dark Knight Rises: Best treatment of the hero theme ever. Great re-imagining of the Russian Revolution, also.
The Amazing Spiderman: Better than the original. Here's why: Emma Stone way better than Kirsten Dunce. The kid who plays Spidey is way better than Toby McGuire. Closer to the comic from what I understand. No silly Power Rangers mask on villain. I like how they keep him in high school. Martin Sheen gets shot.
Three Stooges: Turning Moe loose on the cast of Jersey Shore? Masterful.
The Avengers: The only word for how awesome this movie is: Dude.
Winter's Bone: Jennifer Lawrence deserves an Oscar for just reading this script. Let's just say don't stray too far out of Branson if you're ever up in the Ozarks.
The Hunger Games: The Running Man for pre-teen girls. But with more stabbing.
Transformers: Dark Side of the Moon: A jackhammer of an action movie. Wildly xceeded my low expectations.
Super 8: Thank you Misters Spielberg and Abrams. The former may be a pinko commie lib, but he knows what he's doing. The latter may be a jerk around artist when he's got years to tell a story. But give him just a couple of hours, and he's dead on. Great, great old school 80s era Spielberg flick.
True Grit: I didn't want to like it out of respect for The Duke, but dang it if those Cohen brothers aren't masterful.
X-Men First Class: Yet another home run from Marvel. It's funny, the first time I saw Magneto's helmet, I thought "That would look great on Kevin Bacon."
The Hangover 2: Um. Yeah. Sick. My sainted wife picked this one. I'm sure the prospect of seeing Bradley Cooper's Magnum PI caliber chest had nothing to do with it.Thor: On par with Iron Man, which means top-notch. Jeremy Shockey is great as Thor. What? That's not Jeremy Shockey? Well, he should sue then.
Battle: LASo, that's what happened on the ground on Independence Day. Seriously, very good movie.
Tangled: A Burkean mix of aesthetics and respect for tradition. In other words, it was pretty cool.
Voyage of the Dawn Treader: Spectacular. Some visuals that are so beautiful they almost hurt to look at.
Tron: Legacy: I don't know why they had to mess with perfection.
The A-Team: I wasn't a believer until stuff blew up. Then I was, like, "yeah!"Waiting for Superman: I haven't been this disappointed since I found out that To Kill a Mockingbird wasn't a documentary.
The Book of Eli: Had the potential for one of the greatest endings in movie history but pissed it away with one scene.
She's Out of My League: Is there a RomCom factory somewhere and can we blow it up in the A-Team sequal?
Waking Sleeping Beauty: I liked the Pixar Story much better. It's basically the same movie about movies.
Clash of the Titans: Yelling "Release the Kraken!" when you go into the men's room is still funny. But it has been funny since the 80's, so...
Date Night: Not your average RomCom. I think this is the movie Alfred Hitchcock was trying to make when he slapped North by Northwest together.
Iron Man 2: Keep them coming. Please.




Help










southernsweetie, on 06 May 2012 - 07:21 PM, said:
I didn't ask because I don't think he's the kind of person that would support it on his side either. And it would be changing the subject. However, it would be important to note that comparisons of Obama to Hitler take place in the context of how Bush was treated.
Brah, on 06 May 2012 - 07:46 PM, said:
You have to understand that not all people are as tuned in to every slight aimed at Bush. To the average Obama supporter, it's possible that a Bush/Hitler sign would seem just as irrational as an Obama/Hitler sign.
But if Obama isn't Hitler, is he at least Mussolini? Oh puh-lease, Obama isn't EVEN a Mussolini. Two reasons:
#1 Obama isn't 1/100th the technocrat that Il Duce was. Mussolini at least "made the trains run on time"; I doubt Obama could set up a Tyco train set at christmas without causing a derailmant.
#2 Mussolini was nationalist to the core. Call him every name in the book, but can anyone say with a straight face that Mussolini was anti-Italian? But, Obama vis-a-vis America?
Even though he has totalitarian tendencies, Obama doesn't belong in even the same history book as Mussolini. Nor, for that matter, with second string strongmen like Franco of Spain or Tito of Yugoslavia. To find a comparison to Obama I'd have to scrape the bottom of the barrel of inept minor tinpot communist dictators. Zhivkov of Bulgaria or Hoxha of Albania come to mind. Obama would have to be promoted several paygrades to even be a Ceausescu of Romania.
Adam Smithee, on 07 May 2012 - 02:45 AM, said:
Who's to say Obama wouldn't be as good at dictatorship? He's got that pesky Constitution keeping him from giving Tom Friedman his happy ending.
cobalt-blue, on 07 May 2012 - 07:17 AM, said:
A little schadenfreude is understandable as long as that's all it is. It's like Obama eating that dog. I'm not really outraged, but it's funny because his people have been making so much of Romney's dog story.
Mr. Naron, on 07 May 2012 - 09:14 AM, said:
Obama just isn't that good at anything. All of his signature accomplishments were mainly just rubber-stamping someone else's heavy lifting. Two words: Bin Laden.
Adam Smithee, on 07 May 2012 - 05:26 PM, said:
Mr. Naron, on 07 May 2012 - 09:14 AM, said:
So, even without constitutional constraints, Obama would be ineffective? I think that's a good thing. I said it when he was elected: the best thing for us if Obama is really as left-wing as he appears is for him to be our most incompetent president ever.
Mr. Naron, on 07 May 2012 - 07:13 PM, said:
Yes. Things are as bad as they are because Obama's a marxist-leninist. Things are ONLY as bad as they are because he's an incompetent marxist-leninist.
Henry A. Wallace explains this much better than I when he wrote:
http://newdeal.feri....llace/haw23.htm
Quote
Quote
Remember fascists today whether they call themselves that or not continually tell us that the Constitution as it is written today is not efficient, it's outdated and a waste. We need to streamline government to "get things done" so we can push our nation forward. What they NEVER describe is what they will push our nation forward to nor what things MUST get done now. Our Constitution was intended to force the really hard things off the plate and find the middle ground in all things. We have gone away from that because of some implied getting things done. Ironically the government that had a vast socialist majority never passed a budget during their tenure, because they never wanted to really go onto record about their true intents.
At the end of the day we must understand simply that providing the American voter of a mental picture of people goose-stepping through parades at night is a very very useful tool in explaining to them where the left leaning party wants to take us and eventually where it will ultimately end if we allow it to go there. Does anyone not forget in 2008 when they had that massive stage out there with the columns and all the symbology they used to display his ordained perspective?
laziter, on 08 May 2012 - 05:57 AM, said:
Quote
Quote
All those similarities are legitimate to point out if your point is to clarify who in American politics most resembles a fascist when liberals call conservatives fascists. But it's still silly--even if cathartic--to compare Obama to specific totalitarian dictators like Hitler and Stalin.