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RightNation.US: Are There Any Christian Geniuses? - RightNation.US

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A fellow posting over at Vox Popoli asks whether or not there are any people who are demonstrably Christian and have an IQ over 160. Here are the posts if you want to get caught up on the ever changing nature of the debate:Thanks For SharingWhy Believe?Mailvox: the search for a Christian geniusFor those stricken with adult ADD, here's a few quotes that give you the low down:

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Anyone who can believe the bible is anything but a bad book of poetry can believe absolutely ANYTHING. I once challenged some xtians on a blog to provide evidence of a modern xtian genius - my point being that they are exceedingly rare - if not non-existent.... For all of the sense that Vox makes in discussion of most subjects, I have not resolved this one. How can Vox (or any intelligent xtian) truly believe the Noah's ark fable, Jonah's 3 day bath in stomach acid (with nary a rash), the trip Ezekiel made on the flying, burning chariot, (pulled by a flaming, flying horse), or the silliness of Genesis, where the plants on earth were burning for eons before the sun was created?
and...

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Listen, either you can offer the name of a genius (160 IQ or higher) who is a xtian, or you can't.So far you haven't.
I'm interested in what some folks here have to say. For myself, I can't see how there's any way to win an argument like that. Christians know when they sign on that they are never likely to be hailed as a genius no matter how much they accomplish in the fields of academia, science or business. The vanguard of elites who sit in judgement of such matters are decidedly anti-Christian if not anti-religious altogether. This elite of which I speak is the media (think PBS and work your way down), publishers and academia. A few Christians are sprinkled in among these elites, so one would imagine they would get their due as intellectuals. However, that is not the case.Christians by virtue of what they believe cloud the judgement of the secular world. And the more fundamental and evangelical the Christian, the more that is true. I could invent a cure for cancer and ruin my chances for a Nobel prize by voicing my belief in Noah's Ark. Why is it that as a Christian, I have no problem believing that an atheist probably has a pretty high IQ after speaking with him or her, yet said atheist will have a diminished view of my intelligence after the same debate? Is it because I was less articulate or less informed? (Perhaps in my case that would be true.) It's because of what we believe and in whom we believe. We are told this from day one as Christians. The world will think you are a fool, and it will hate you. It doesn't bother us, or at least it shouldn't, because it's an infinitely small price to pay for an eternity in the arms of The Saviour.My Mind is Clean
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36 Comments On This Entry

Guest, on Aug 7 2005, 10:38 AM, said:

Science and Christianity are enemies, partly out of disagreement and partly out of tradition. And most intellectuals support science. This is partly because it is the more cerebral, less centralised and less emotional option, partly because they are naturally skeptical and argumentative and tend to stick with the default (atheism) unless hard proof and bitter arguments are brought against them.

Then if a person who posesses such a mind comes to the conclusion that Christ is the Son of God, what do you make of it?

I'm thinking Simon Greenleaf, the founder of Harvard Law and C.S. Lewis, famous author and Oxford professor. Both were established intellectuals and skeptics who came to the conclusion that Christ is who He says He is.
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Chris Naron, on Aug 7 2005, 10:43 AM, said:

Then if a person who posesses such a mind comes to the conclusion that Christ is the Son of God, what do you make of it?

I'm thinking Simon Greenleaf, the founder of Harvard Law and C.S. Lewis, famous author and Oxford professor.  Both were established intellectuals and skeptics who came to the conclusion that Christ is who He says He is.

You beat me to it. I was going to mention C. S. Lewis.
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Isaac Newton.
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I don't make a personal habit of asking people for their IQ's, so I doubt I could list ONE person I knew had an IQ over 160 (Christian or otherwise) besides Marilyn vos Savant and Albert Einstein. People I do think would be high up there would include people like Issac Newton, C.S. Lewis, Thomas Aquinas, N.T. Wright, Bruce Metzger, Alvin Plantinga, Bruce M. Waltke, Martin Luther, Francis Bacon (the founder of the scientific method), Copernicus, and (although their views are not very popular) I consider Michael Behe and William Dembski to be highly intelligent. Not that I expect any of this will change anyone's mind...
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Or Norman Geisler, William Lane Craig, Gregory A. Boyd, Gary Habermas, Richard Bauckham, Bruce J. Malina, Craig Blomberg, R. Douglas Geivett, Kenneth Kitchen... man, I could really get going with this.
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For starters, this is an idiodically loaded question, as most IQ tests are scored differently. Questions worth asking?

Is he referring to a speed test, a power test, or a combination of the two? -- Some people work slower, and more methodically, and will score much higher on a power test than on a speed test.

What is the range scored on the test? -- I can score anywhere between 144 and 160, depending on the range of the test. Both times, it was labled as "genius" because one test had a tighter scoring number.

Is the test geared towards factual knowledge or conceptual knowledge? -- Some people might simply lack edumacation for things like trig or calc. Tests which require you to have a higher education are usually quite poor. Rather, one which tests concepts, spacial relations, mental ability finding with complex numbers usuing simple mathematicsare usually better.

Is the geared towards men, women, or neutral? That is, men and women think in different ways, and a test geared towards one or the other will likely favor them.

That said, I would be willing to bet that there are quite a few christians with demonstrably at or near 160IQ. I would also like to point out that there are very few people in general who have 160+ IQ. Maybe you should challenge them to name 8 people who have 160+ IQ.
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Guest, on Aug 7 2005, 02:38 PM, said:

Science and Christianity are enemies, partly out of disagreement and partly out of tradition. And most intellectuals support science. This is partly because it is the more cerebral, less centralised and less emotional option, partly because they are naturally skeptical and argumentative and tend to stick with the default (atheism) unless hard proof and bitter arguments are brought against them.



I don't totally buy that Science and Christianity are enemies. I think that Science is created by God as a way for us to understand things that God has done.

I also don't automatically discount people's intellect if/when I find out they are a Christian. God's amazing, he could very well have done some amazing things. The only thing I ever sometimes question is some of their hearts when they are cruel to me supposedly in the name of Christ.

As for the original argument in this blog I don't get it. I don't get why that guy is going on about Christians not being able to be geniuses. Faith doesn't get in the way of anyone's mind.
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FalconAZ2003, on Aug 7 2005, 09:27 PM, said:

Isaac Newton.


Beautiful.

How about Francis Schaffer or John Calvin, or RC Sproul.

The problem with this question and answer is that the names we have surfaced thus far (Shaffer, Sproul, Greenleaf, Newton, etc) are what Schaffer would have called below the line thinkers, or modern men. These are Christian thinkers who have the ability to stand toe to toe with the secularist, extistentialist, humanist, pramatist and positivist and give them a drubbing at their own game. Problem is most Christians aren't prepared to step below the line to do that, but as above the line thinkers they would be considered extrodinarily brillant.
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Guest, on Aug 7 2005, 10:38 AM, said:

Science and Christianity are enemies, partly out of disagreement and partly out of tradition. And most intellectuals support science. This is partly because it is the more cerebral, less centralised and less emotional option, partly because they are naturally skeptical and argumentative and tend to stick with the default (atheism) unless hard proof and bitter arguments are brought against them.

This is absolutely incorrect on practically every point made. Science and Christianity are not enemies at all. Indeed, science continually proves the Bible, even when skeptics, like the afforementioned Professor Lewis, attempt to prove the Bible wrong. Now it is true that "(m)ost intellectuals support science." Certainly, I support science. I could not practice medicine or psychiatry without science. I consider myself an "intellectual," what with the doctorate, etc. But many scientists, and I would say most who actually work in the practical application of science rather than in the Ivory Tower of the Academy, do have religious belief and act upon it, Christian or otherwise. My own religious beliefs were strengthened by my own "more cerebral, less centralized, less emotional and naturally skeptical and argumentative" study of science. I think the better (I asssume that is what you meant) arguments are made by scientists with religious belief than by the secularists. Faith cannot preclude intellect. Faith is a requirement in all forms of thinking. No secularist can logically explain the Big Bang Theory. Where did the "primordial soup" come from? How did an explosion occur spontaneously? These are two anti-scientific concepts. It takes much more faith for a truly thinking scientist to be an atheist than it does to be Christian.

Also, I wonder why this author used 160 as the IQ level of genius. My training is that anything above 140 is genius (95th percentile on the bell curve). There have been many Christian geniuses, even those above 160.

One more thing: I hope your spelling of "centralised" indicates you are from Canada, Australia, or the U.K. If not, it shows you either to be a poor speller or an affected pseudo-intellectual.
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Great names, guys. However, one other caveat TNT gave was that the Christian geniuses be alive.

But like some have pointed out, it's not really common for us to ask people their IQ score or for them to be wearing it in their shirts. Maybe we need to start doing that. I dunno.

I just love how no matter who you name, this guy is going to find some reason to either explain why the person isn't a Christian or why the person isn't the type of genius he's talking about.

Here's a newsflash for anyone looking down his nose at Christians: Jesus is for everyone, not just the smart. The vast majority of people aren't especially smart by definition. So, it's a no-brainer that God is going to present Himself in a way that anyone can understand Him. Yet He still confounds the brilliant. It's amazing how really smart people can't just accept something as simple as The Good News. They try to take the long way around to God. And that's what science and empiricism is if they are what's going to be your method of discovering the meaning of life.

By the by, the next time someone asks you to show God to them--expecting some kind of physical proof--ask them to show you an "As of Yet Undiscovered Mechanism." That's in whom they place their faith. They can't show it to you but they are certain it exists.

Sounds like faith to me.
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I have a measured IQ of 155. I have a Mensa membership card and everything (even thought Mensa is really just an organization that you pay $200 a year to join so that you can prove you're smart). I am a devoted Catholic (Mass almost everyday, working Apologetic, you name it) and have a strong belief in God and His works. Honestly, the more education that I get, the more it reaffirms that belief. Seriously.

:ph34r:
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Sorry, forgot to ID myself--EmMingo is E.M. Zanotti (American Princess)
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CS Lewis, Tolkein, me (185)...
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emMingo, on Aug 8 2005, 06:39 AM, said:

I have a measured IQ of 155. I have a Mensa membership card and everything (even thought Mensa is really just an organization that you pay $200 a year to join so that you can prove you're smart). I am a devoted Catholic (Mass almost everyday, working Apologetic, you name it) and have a strong belief in God and His works. Honestly, the more education that I get, the more it reaffirms that belief. Seriously.

:ph34r:


That's why I don't belong to MENSA...
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Why do I surround myself with people so much smarter than me?

:ph34r:

Those are amazing scores. I can't imagine what an arrogant miscreant I would have become if I had such intelligence. God knows what he's doing. Still, you all must have a hobbit-like resistance to pride.

(Welcome E.M.!)
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Quote

Still, you all must have a hobbit-like resistance to pride.


You've never seen me lose a game of Trivial Pursuit. Not a pretty picture.

Really, all its done for me is give me a very bad case of Attention Deficit Disorder.
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emMingo, on Aug 8 2005, 09:39 AM, said:

You've never seen me lose a game of Trivial Pursuit. Not a pretty picture.

Really, all its done for me is give me a very bad case of Attention Deficit Disorder.


That may come in handy later. I have a score to settle with the City of Huntington Beach Library. :ph34r: After my trivia team won three years in a row, which made it four wins in five years, they sprung an allstar team on us. When we went to congratulate them, all we got was, "We were sent here to beat you." We would have lost anyway, though. We got hit with a sports question that baffled us.

We might have to fly you in.
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I am not nearly as smart as you guys IQ in the 120-130 range but hey I manage to get buy.

However I am smart enough to learn when that there are people not worth talking too. This guy and his christain bashing is obviously one of those fellows. Throw in his term xtians, is guess this is what the kids at the cool table write, and well I normally nod my head thank him for wasting a small part of my life I cant get back and then walk away. I suggest that everyone else follow my lead.
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This is a silly argument. My father - IQ well above 160 - Doctorates in Nucleur Physics, American History, Philosophy, Masters in Physics, Philosphy, History, Biology, Chemistry, etc. etc (really the man has too many masters to remember), 113 patents to his name (in English more if you count foriegn language) is a Christian. To narrow it down he is a strict Catholic and has raised me the same way. Most of his fellow physicist believe in God and many are Christians.

And yes.. Einstien had a strong beleive in God. You only have to read his autobiography to realize that.

Science and Christianity are not at war with each other.

By the way, curious why they didn't mention the IQ's of any of the Popes or Bishops or other theologians. Intuition tells me that we would find them quite high..probably at genius level.
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Oh for heaven's sake!

My IQ is 152. I started reading my father's grad-school psych books when I was thirteen. I had a tenth grade reading level at the age of seven. I started reading when I was four and a half. I can read over 150 words a minute. 95th percentile on the SAT, and that's just because I suck at math. Four out of five on the English AP test, and that was on two hours of sleep. I had people asking me what my major was when I was a freshman in high school. When I took the SAT the first time- in seventh grade- I was 57th percentile- out of college bound seniors. This was before I even took algebra or English Lit.

I go to church every Sunday, read my Scriptures almost every night, and pray morning and night, with many little pleas for help throughout the day. I try every day to live the commandment my Lord and Savior have given me: Love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and love thy neighbor as thyself.

My best friend blows me out of the water when it comes to book smarts. I'm intelligent, but I've got no work ethic. She took college calculus her sophmore year of high school, all AP classes (English, History, Spanish, Orchestra, Physics, Chemistry, Bio) throughout school. 99th percentile on the SAT, National Merit Scholar, and about a billion other things.

I can't think of any brilliant Christian minds out there, but I'm also not at all up to speed on the "genius" things, like science and whatnot. I'm sure there are people that we just don't know are Christian, because they don't want to be ridiculed every day going into work. Me, I could probably get into any college I wanted, if I gave a damn, but I don't. I train horses and I work with special needs kids. Good enough for me.

~Diamond~
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