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#21 User is offline   ASE 

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Posted 24 August 2019 - 11:34 AM

View Postgravelrash, on 23 August 2019 - 02:51 PM, said:

The way Communist China treats other nations is not exactly "free trade".
...

Precisely.

Devaluing their currency so their stuff is cheaper to buy (and thereby driving their competitors out of the market), and putting tariffs on foreign goods coming into china, while not having foreign nations levy tariffs on chinese junk sent to their countries is not exactly a level playing field. In those cases china gets the advantage while their trade 'partners' get the shaft.

@ GrimV - Cost to their citizens? They don't give a rip about 'cost to their citizens', and besides they don't have citizens, they have subjects / serfs, and in some cases virtual slaves with absolutely no say in what their dictators dictate. Just look at Hong Kong. Commie china breaks the agreement, and the HK folk are just supposed to bend over and accept the shaft once more. The only time china gives a rip about their subjects is when they are about to overthrow the dictators.
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#22 User is offline   Severian 

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Posted 24 August 2019 - 12:11 PM

Free Trade to far too many means a trading street that's a six lane highway from foreign countries into the US with a bicycle lane from the US to foreign countries. It is not and never has been "free trade."
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#23 User is offline   grimreefer 

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Posted 24 August 2019 - 07:42 PM

I think the leftists are realizing that sabotage is more effective than throwing tantrums, and when you're an amoral/immoral POS... :shrug: ...anything goes.


:coffeenpc:
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#24 User is offline   AntonToo 

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Posted 24 August 2019 - 08:16 PM

View PostNH Populist, on 23 August 2019 - 06:31 PM, said:

He may not have ordered any company to vacate the U.S., but his highest in the industrialized world corporate tax rate


Cool story bro, but you may want to learn some facts.

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-7hALplci5jA/WEivqpueZvI/AAAAAAAAJQY/b51B07w0AlM1cv0elKiQZOnZKvRfRWyZgCLcB/s1600/FIG1.gif
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#25 User is offline   gravelrash 

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Posted 24 August 2019 - 08:27 PM

Facts? I thought it's all about the truth.
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#26 User is online   zurg 

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Posted 24 August 2019 - 08:27 PM

Anton is breaking my sargentís rule - again.

View Postgrimreefer, on 24 August 2019 - 07:42 PM, said:

I think the leftists are realizing that sabotage is more effective than throwing tantrums, and when you're an amoral/immoral POS... :shrug: ...anything goes.


:coffeenpc:

True.
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#27 User is offline   GrimV 

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Posted 24 August 2019 - 08:35 PM

View PostASE, on 24 August 2019 - 11:34 AM, said:



@ GrimV - Cost to their citizens? They don't give a rip about 'cost to their citizens', and besides they don't have citizens, they have subjects / serfs, and in some cases virtual slaves with absolutely no say in what their dictators dictate. Just look at Hong Kong. Commie china breaks the agreement, and the HK folk are just supposed to bend over and accept the shaft once more. The only time china gives a rip about their subjects is when they are about to overthrow the dictators.


That was a roundabout way of saying "China's trade advantage isn't much of an advantage".

They do the exact opposite of what's necessary to sustain a healthy economy: Cheap exports, expensive imports.
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#28 User is online   zurg 

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Posted 24 August 2019 - 08:40 PM

View PostGrimV, on 24 August 2019 - 08:35 PM, said:

That was a roundabout way of saying "China's trade advantage isn't much of an advantage".

They do the exact opposite of what's necessary to sustain a healthy economy: Cheap exports, expensive imports.

They have been stealing IP for decades and have only developed manufacturing. By avoiding upfront costs of R&D their product cost basis is a fraction of countries in the West that mostly play by the rules. Do NOT ignore this critical fact.

This post has been edited by zurg: 24 August 2019 - 08:40 PM

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#29 User is offline   GrimV 

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Posted 24 August 2019 - 09:12 PM

View Postzurg, on 24 August 2019 - 08:40 PM, said:

They have been stealing IP for decades and have only developed manufacturing. By avoiding upfront costs of R&D their product cost basis is a fraction of countries in the West that mostly play by the rules. Do NOT ignore this critical fact.



Name a single trade war in the entire history of the world that was ever "won".

You have 4 1/2 billion years to work with. Surely you can find a single example where both sides didn't end up worse off than when they started.







Spoiler

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#30 User is online   zurg 

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Posted 24 August 2019 - 09:18 PM

View PostGrimV, on 24 August 2019 - 09:12 PM, said:

Name a single trade war in the entire history of the world that was ever "won".

You have 4 1/2 billion years to work with. Surely you can find a single example where both sides didn't end up worse off than when they started.




Spoiler


Then thereís always the first time.

Chinaís exploitation of other peopleís IP is not excusable. Too bad you donít address that fact.
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#31 User is offline   Natural Selection 

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Posted 24 August 2019 - 09:23 PM

View PostGrimV, on 24 August 2019 - 09:12 PM, said:

Name a single trade war in the entire history of the world that was ever "won".


While not exactly a trade war, the United States forced the Soviet Union to spend more than they could afford in an effort to keep up with our military. It was a major factor in the collapse of the Soviet Union. It was an economic battle. Not a shot was fired.
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#32 User is offline   GrimV 

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Posted 24 August 2019 - 10:53 PM

View Postzurg, on 24 August 2019 - 09:18 PM, said:

Then thereís always the first time.




Yes, there's always a first time, said every Socialist ever.

If it's never been successful in the past, by what logic do you assume it'll work in the future?

Quote

Chinaís exploitation of other peopleís IP is not excusable. Too bad you donít address that fact.


How does taxing the American people with an unwinnable trade war fix that?
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#33 User is offline   GrimV 

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Posted 24 August 2019 - 10:55 PM

View PostNatural Selection, on 24 August 2019 - 09:23 PM, said:

While not exactly a trade war, the United States forced the Soviet Union to spend more than they could afford in an effort to keep up with our military. It was a major factor in the collapse of the Soviet Union. It was an economic battle. Not a shot was fired.


You were right the first time, that's not a trade war.

Apples v Oranges.
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#34 User is online   zurg 

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Posted 24 August 2019 - 11:27 PM

View PostGrimV, on 24 August 2019 - 10:53 PM, said:

Yes, there's always a first time, said every Socialist ever.

If it's never been successful in the past, by what logic do you assume it'll work in the future?



How does taxing the American people with an unwinnable trade war fix that?

Are you accusing me of being a socialist?
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#35 User is offline   GrimV 

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Posted 24 August 2019 - 11:47 PM

View Postzurg, on 24 August 2019 - 11:27 PM, said:

Are you accusing me of being a socialist?


No. But you're using the same logic: "It's never worked in the past because it's never been implemented by the right people".

See if you can spot the similarities: "Socialism's never worked in the past because people like Bernie Sanders has never been in charge" versus "Trade wars have never worked in the past because people like Donald Trump have never been in charge".

It's the same wishful thinking, and history sides with neither argument.
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#36 User is offline   Natural Selection 

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Posted 25 August 2019 - 06:34 AM

View PostGrimV, on 24 August 2019 - 10:55 PM, said:

You were right the first time, that's not a trade war.

Apples v Oranges.


The US had a $419 billion trade deficit with China in 2018. Is that just a random occurrence, or is it the result of trade policy decisions on both sides?

If it's the result of trade policy decisions, then China has made the better decisions. A "trade war" is essentially a collection of trade policy decisions.

Many countries have been involved in "trade wars" for a long time. Those with trade surpluses have "won" the war. Those with trade deficits have "lost" the war.

Trump has not started a trade war with China. He has simply changed the policies of a trade war that's been ongoing for decades.
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#37 User is online   zurg 

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Posted 25 August 2019 - 07:24 AM

View PostGrimV, on 24 August 2019 - 11:47 PM, said:

No. But you're using the same logic: "It's never worked in the past because it's never been implemented by the right people".

You are wrong. I never used that argument. YOU brought that up as a feeble counter argument, when that NEVER was my point. You used projection - which by the way is a tool leftists/socialists use a lot. Furthermore, you have yet to address the point I made, instead youíre only engaging in condescension. Why you have to only have that style of response, I donít know, but thatís how you have decided to behave here. It makes responding to you most unpleasant. You probably know this, but I felt it needed to be stated.
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#38 User is offline   GrimV 

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Posted 25 August 2019 - 08:58 AM

View Postzurg, on 25 August 2019 - 07:24 AM, said:

You are wrong. I never used that argument. YOU brought that up as a feeble counter argument, when that NEVER was my point. You used projection - which by the way is a tool leftists/socialists use a lot. Furthermore, you have yet to address the point I made, instead youíre only engaging in condescension. Why you have to only have that style of response, I donít know, but thatís how you have decided to behave here. It makes responding to you most unpleasant. You probably know this, but I felt it needed to be stated.


Here's the evolution of the conversation. I'll highlight the pertinent information and let the audience decide...


ME (answering ASE): "That was a roundabout way of saying 'China's trade advantage isn't much of an advantage'."

YOU: "They have been stealing IP for decades and have only developed manufacturing. By avoiding upfront costs of R&D their product cost basis is a fraction of countries in the West that mostly play by the rules. Do NOT ignore this critical fact."

ME: "Name a single trade war in the entire history of the world that was ever 'won'. You have 4 1/2 billion years to work with. Surely you can find a single example where both sides didn't end up worse off than when they started."

YOU: "Then thereís always the first time. Chinaís exploitation of other peopleís IP is not excusable. Too bad you donít address that fact."



This is how I read your answer: "Just because it hasn't worked in the past doesn't mean it won't work in the future."

So this is how I countered: "If it's never been successful in the past, by what logic do you assume it'll work in the future?"



And yes, I've addressed your points. You claim China is stealing Intellectual Property. Okay, fine. How does taxing the American people with an unwinnable trade war fix that?
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#39 User is offline   Natural Selection 

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Posted 25 August 2019 - 09:01 AM

View PostGrimV, on 25 August 2019 - 08:58 AM, said:

How does taxing the American people with an unwinnable trade war fix that?


Can you provide any examples of inflation caused by our "unwinnable" trade war with China?
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#40 User is offline   Rock N' Roll Right Winger 

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Posted 25 August 2019 - 09:09 AM

View Postzurg, on 25 August 2019 - 07:24 AM, said:

You are wrong. I never used that argument. YOU brought that up as a feeble counter argument, when that NEVER was my point. You used projection - which by the way is a tool leftists/socialists use a lot. Furthermore, you have yet to address the point I made, instead youíre only engaging in condescension. Why you have to only have that style of response, I donít know, but thatís how you have decided to behave here. It makes responding to you most unpleasant. You probably know this, but I felt it needed to be stated.

:exactly:
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