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#21 User is offline   catpat 

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Posted 08 March 2019 - 10:39 AM

View PostRock N, on 08 March 2019 - 06:34 AM, said:

Back in the day when I went to school, several Catholic kids wore the ashes on their forehead to class. No biggie.


But now, the public schools here in some counties don't allow it, but there has been no public outcry about it.

And remember people this happened in Utah, home of the Mormons. That probably had something to do with influencing this teacher's attitude towards this student?

Oh, really. "Mormon influence," eh? Members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are keenly conscious of religious bigotry. Not to say that there aren't members that are jerks, I doubt that is what played out here.

I am going to err on the side of this teacher, who may have thought she was doing her civic duty. Religious expression in schools are, generally, not allowed, especially Bible reading and prayers, so why should this be okay? why should she get herself in trouble, perhaps, for not doing anything about it? What is a teacher to do?

This post has been edited by catpat: 08 March 2019 - 10:48 AM

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#22 User is offline   Severian 

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Posted 08 March 2019 - 10:41 AM

View PostUSNJIMRET, on 08 March 2019 - 02:28 AM, said:

I will admit I had never seen it until I was in my early 30's in Iceland.
Guess I just wasn't around Catholics much.

I first saw it in the college, a Catholic guy I knew showed up with ash on his forehead. I asked him about it, he explained, no biggie. I had never been around many Catholics either growing up.

View PostRock N, on 08 March 2019 - 06:34 AM, said:

Back in the day when I went to school, several Catholic kids wore the ashes on their forehead to class. No biggie.


But now, the public schools here in some counties don't allow it, but there has been no public outcry about it.

And remember people this happened in Utah, home of the Mormons. That probably had something to do with influencing this teacher's attitude towards this student?

You'd think a Mormon would be a tad bit more religiously tolerant given how they were treated back in the 1800s.
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#23 User is offline   catpat 

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Posted 08 March 2019 - 10:42 AM

View PostMontyPython, on 08 March 2019 - 09:44 AM, said:

I agree it's possible she just didn't know. HOWEVER, that said, after the kid explained it to her, she had no excuse to call it "inappropriate" and make him wash it off.

B)

Why not? If Bible reading and prayers are not allowed in schools, then, perhaps in her mind, why not this?
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#24 User is offline   catpat 

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Posted 08 March 2019 - 10:46 AM

View PostSeverian, on 08 March 2019 - 10:41 AM, said:

I first saw it in the college, a Catholic guy I knew showed up with ash on his forehead. I asked him about it, he explained, no biggie. I had never been around many Catholics either growing up.


You'd think a Mormon would be a tad bit more religiously tolerant given how they were treated back in the 1800s.

Where does it say she is a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?
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#25 User is offline   Ladybird 

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Posted 08 March 2019 - 10:49 AM

This is the second example this week, and many examples before, of a teacher being unaware of the religious or free speech rights of kids, even when they are students. I would say it is their training that is insufficient.

This post has been edited by Ladybird: 08 March 2019 - 11:01 AM

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#26 User is online   Wag-a-Muffin (D) 

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Posted 08 March 2019 - 11:29 AM

View PostLadybird, on 08 March 2019 - 10:49 AM, said:

This is the second example this week, and many examples before, of a teacher being unaware of the religious or free speech rights of kids, even when they are students. I would say it is their training that is insufficient.

I've gotta disagree with you, here. I can point to multiple examples of religious freedoms being squashed by schools. (Valedictorians forbidden from even mentioning God/prayers forbidden before sporting events, etc.) I see more examples of schools banning religious expression--with the exception being Islam. (And I am one of the Muslim apologists here on RN. I just am mentioning what I have seen in the news.)
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#27 User is online   Wag-a-Muffin (D) 

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Posted 08 March 2019 - 11:35 AM

From the article

Quote

William said he received candy and a handwritten note from his teacher that read: 'William, I am so sorry. I hope we can move things from here'.


It appears after the teacher was informed of her mistake, she apologized--a fact many of those who commented here on RN appeared to have missed after reading the article--or did they just read the headline? :coolshades:

(Yeah. I have to admit, many times I don't read the whole article but make an assumption from the headline.)


And if I liken this to me (and my teaching experience) I wonder what I would have done. (And I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.) And that does affect how I treat members of other faiths. In my family are horrendous examples of civil rights being violated, mob violence against my ancestors, etc. So I'm pretty careful not to mock someone's beliefs. The first time I saw someone participating in this ritual, I was in Vallerta el mercado (because they have the best produce locally.) And I noticed many shoppers with soot on their foreheads. I asked my husband and he replied, "it must be Ash Friday." I was OLD the first time I ever saw anything about this (either in person or on video.) But if you look at the photo of the young man in question, I can totally see why the teacher did what she did. (And seriously, after dealing with kids I would suspect any excuse they gave me.) Sorry/not sorry.

This post has been edited by Wag-a-Muffin (D): 08 March 2019 - 11:44 AM

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#28 User is offline   Ladybird 

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Posted 08 March 2019 - 11:41 AM

View PostWag-a-Muffin (D), on 08 March 2019 - 11:29 AM, said:

I've gotta disagree with you, here. I can point to multiple examples of religious freedoms being squashed by schools. (Valedictorians forbidden from even mentioning God/prayers forbidden before sporting events, etc.) I see more examples of schools banning religious expression--with the exception being Islam. (And I am one of the Muslim apologists here on RN. I just am mentioning what I have seen in the news.)


It’s one thing to pray and practice your religion. It’s quite another to force a captive audience to listen to and participate in it too, or for the school to sponsor prayers IMO.
And there are examples of southern schools doing that very thing.

This post has been edited by Ladybird: 08 March 2019 - 11:45 AM

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#29 User is offline   Tikk 

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Posted 08 March 2019 - 11:41 AM

View Postcatpat, on 08 March 2019 - 10:42 AM, said:

Why not? If Bible reading and prayers are not allowed in schools, then, perhaps in her mind, why not this?


Where exactly is Bible reading prohibited? Honestly I would like to know.

If I were a student. And if I were to bring a Bible or if I were to pray in a public school. What law, code, or other prohibition would not allow me to exercise my right to observe my own personal religious beliefs?
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#30 User is online   Wag-a-Muffin (D) 

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Posted 08 March 2019 - 11:47 AM

View PostTikk, on 08 March 2019 - 11:41 AM, said:

Where exactly is Bible reading prohibited? Honestly I would like to know.

If I were a student. And if I were to bring a Bible or if I were to pray in a public school. What law, code, or other prohibition would not allow me to exercise my right to observe my own personal religious beliefs?

A Florida school teacher humiliated a 12-year-old boy in front of an entire class after she caught him reading the Bible during free reading time.

When 8-year-old Ryleigh Watts returned to class and informed her teacher who she wanted to honor, however, her mother said she was told to “write about something different.” Who was the proposed subject of young Ryleigh’s paper? Jesus Christ.

This post has been edited by Wag-a-Muffin (D): 08 March 2019 - 11:49 AM

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#31 User is offline   Ladybird 

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Posted 08 March 2019 - 12:04 PM

Rankin County student sues over religious assemblies at school
Exclusive video obtained by 16 WAPT News
https://www.wapt.com...-school/2086072

Excerpt;
<snip>

"We were not told what the assembly was going to be about. I asked a teacher and she said, 'You don't need to know. It will be good for you.' I asked other teachers and they said, 'We're not supposed to tell you. Just go,'" Bedi said.

Bedi said she recorded cellphone video in April of one of four school assemblies at Northwest Rankin High School. In all four assemblies, students talked to classmates about overcoming obstacles through Jesus Christ.

"That was the straw that broke the camel's back for me. I was uncomfortable with the whole thing -- the fact that they were preaching an assembly through Christianity," Bedi said.

<snip>

Another allegation in Rankin County claims a Christian minister was given access to the lunchroom at Northshore Elementary School and approached a Muslim child. Classmates were told to pray for her because she was going to hell.

<snip>


I think they all are insufficiently trained on the first amendment rights of students.
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#32 User is offline   Tikk 

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Posted 08 March 2019 - 12:11 PM

View PostWag-a-Muffin (D), on 08 March 2019 - 11:47 AM, said:



Erm. Those are instances where authorities overstepped their, er, authority.

My question still is: "What law, code, or other prohibition would not allow me to exercise my right to observe my own personal religious beliefs?"
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#33 User is offline   catpat 

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Posted 08 March 2019 - 12:36 PM

View PostTikk, on 08 March 2019 - 12:11 PM, said:

Erm. Those are instances where authorities overstepped their, er, authority.

My question still is: "What law, code, or other prohibition would not allow me to exercise my right to observe my own personal religious beliefs?"

There are no laws that prohibit free exercise of religion in schools. However, there are myriad instances where schools, overstepping their authority, have prohibited the the free exercise thereof, because they misunderstand the law.
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#34 User is offline   Tikk 

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Posted 08 March 2019 - 12:44 PM

View Postcatpat, on 08 March 2019 - 12:36 PM, said:

There are no laws that prohibit free exercise of religion in schools. However, there are myriad instances where schools, overstepping their authority, have prohibited the the free exercise thereof, because they misunderstand the law.


Agreed.

Honestly I there there needs to be a push back on this behavior of going from "prohibiting the free exercise of" to absolutely prohibiting.

As if "allowing" is the same as "condoning" or "requiring".
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#35 User is offline   MontyPython 

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Posted 08 March 2019 - 01:19 PM

View PostWag-a-Muffin (D), on 08 March 2019 - 10:20 AM, said:

I'm willing to wait a little. I've taught school. If this kid was a trouble maker, or if his tone was mocking when he said it--then it is different. I agree with you if her "history" with this child indicated he was telling the truth. But, I've known some kids that I wouldn't trust if they told me the sky were blue. Just sayin'.

(But I've also known some pretty ignorant Utahans. So you could be complete on target.)


I guess my attitude is that even if he was a smartass kid, how does an ash smudge harm anybody else? Did it spread germs? Did it make noise? Did it disrupt the class? If not, then the teacher was out of line.

But as a follow-up, reading further through the thread I caught your subsequent post about the candy & apology. So that, at least, was a happy ending to the whole affair (I hope.)


View Postcatpat, on 08 March 2019 - 10:42 AM, said:

Why not? If Bible reading and prayers are not allowed in schools, then, perhaps in her mind, why not this?


Just so I can be sure where you're coming from: Would you suggest it's OK that prayers & Bible reading are not allowed in schools?

I assure you I'm not trying to be snarky or insulting. I'm genuinely curious.

B)
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#36 User is offline   catpat 

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Posted 08 March 2019 - 01:57 PM

View PostMontyPython, on 08 March 2019 - 01:19 PM, said:

Just so I can be sure where you're coming from: Would you suggest it's OK that prayers & Bible reading are not allowed in schools?

I do not have a problem with students reading their Bibles or having prayers in school. I do not feel that ashes are a problem, either.

Quote

I assure you I'm not trying to be snarky or insulting. I'm genuinely curious.

B)

Let's say that the teacher misunderstood the law regarding the right to observe personal religious beliefs within a school setting, e.g., Bible reading and prayer, then I can see where she may have thought that the ashes were inappropriate.
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#37 User is offline   MontyPython 

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Posted 08 March 2019 - 02:09 PM

View Postcatpat, on 08 March 2019 - 01:57 PM, said:

I do not have a problem with students reading their Bibles or having prayers in school. I do not feel that ashes are a problem, either.


Let's say that the teacher misunderstood the law regarding the right to observe personal religious beliefs within a school setting, e.g., Bible reading and prayer, then I can see where she may have thought that the ashes were inappropriate.


Then I can't deny being somewhat confused. :blush: It seems we're in agreement, and yet your previous response to me came across as disagreement.

Oh well, I ran out of coffee yesterday and have therefore had to get through today without any. Maybe that explains it.

:coffeenpc:
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#38 User is offline   catpat 

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Posted 08 March 2019 - 02:34 PM

View PostMontyPython, on 08 March 2019 - 02:09 PM, said:

Then I can't deny being somewhat confused. :blush: It seems we're in agreement, and yet your previous response to me came across as disagreement.

Oh well, I ran out of coffee yesterday and have therefore had to get through today without any. Maybe that explains it.

:coffeenpc:

What you said is "she had no excuse to call it 'inappropriate' and make him wash it off." My comment back to you was "Why not? ... ." It was more a rhetorical remark. Perhaps if I had been a little more clearer by stating, "After all, if Bible reading ... ." Sorry, for the confusion.
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#39 User is offline   MontyPython 

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Posted 08 March 2019 - 03:01 PM

View Postcatpat, on 08 March 2019 - 02:34 PM, said:

What you said is "she had no excuse to call it 'inappropriate' and make him wash it off." My comment back to you was "Why not? ... ." It was more a rhetorical remark. Perhaps if I had been a little more clearer by stating, "After all, if Bible reading ... ." Sorry, for the confusion.


So then we are at least basically in agreement, yes?

:yes:
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#40 User is offline   catpat 

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Posted 08 March 2019 - 03:23 PM

View PostMontyPython, on 08 March 2019 - 03:01 PM, said:

So then we are at least basically in agreement, yes?

:yes:
Yes.
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