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#21 User is online   oki 

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Posted 10 January 2019 - 03:15 PM

View PostBuckwheat Jones, on 09 January 2019 - 03:27 PM, said:

On the other hand, in St. Louis where I live....



Sounds similar in many ways to Milwaukee, the murder and violence is vastly disproportional in relation to how much of the states population it makes up vs how much of the states crime it accounts for. In the case of Milwaukee it makes up for over half the states murders despite accounting for less than %10 of it's total population.

Oki
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#22 User is offline   scotsman 

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Posted 10 January 2019 - 05:26 PM

View Postoki, on 10 January 2019 - 02:52 PM, said:

Thought I read that semi auto rifles are legal in the U.K. but only if they are not Center firehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2bMn_5c4oKs. Which of coarse by in large limits you to a .22LR.

Provided that nothing has changed(this article is 8 or 9 years old).
https://www.bbc.com/news/10220974

Michael Ryan's massacre of 16 people in Hungerford in 1987 led to the banning of all modern semi-automatic rifles, the range of guns that can be fired rapidly without needing to be reloaded.

Nine years later, Thomas Hamilton killed 16 schoolchildren and their teacher when he opened fire at a school in Dunblane. Parliament banned all handguns and there is now a mandatory five-year jail sentence for possession.

Provided this guy is correct.... it also answers some questions.
https://www.youtube....h?v=2bMn_5c4oKs

Would seem your limited to .22 for any type of semi auto rifle.


I have heard of what is referred to as single pull which is a semi auto rifle, but you have to pull the bolt or charging handle for each shot.
https://www.youtube....h?v=F49kyRdR_Jc
This is one the guy in the first video specifically mentioned.

Unless the upper is made as to not accommodate a standard AR15 bolt Carrier, it would largely be a matter of installing a gas return tube and obtaining or making a bolt that has a normal carrier key. Even then, just get your hands on a CNC machine and can make an entire upper and or needed parts.

Oki


You are spot on. Bolt action are also known here as straight pull. I can own an AK47, AR15 etc, but has to be either bolt action if over .22/.223 or under that if semi-auto.


http://www.ukpreppersguide.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/BzYr9RJCMAAMRmw.jpg
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#23 User is offline   scotsman 

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Posted 10 January 2019 - 05:36 PM

View PostSeverian, on 10 January 2019 - 10:47 AM, said:

Correct me if I’m wrong, but I believe the majority of “legal” guns in Europe and the UK are shotguns and rifles, usually not of the semi auto magazine fed variety. Few hand guns, few truly useful against larger groups of people rifles,, hard to wander around the Xmas Village with a long gun for defense.


Yes, that's correct. Handguns have never been a sizeable number of the UK gun total. There have always been UK handguns, but in far smaller numbers compared to shotguns and rifles. I believe the total pre 1997 mainland (not NI) ban on most (not all) handguns was approx. 20000. Now its 14-15,000.

Spiked in the 80s and 90s due to Dirty Harry/US films, we have historically used shotguns and rifles. In the last 40 yrs or so, obviously prior to 1997 handguns increased in use and to today, some UK gun owners will own/use either semi-auto or straight pull versions of the 'sexy' glamour weapons, such as the AK47, AR15, MI6, G36, MP5 etc. Which are of course more expensive, even a 2nd hand straight pull will be £500/600 at cheapest, most straights are £1000-2500/3000, usually about 1500-2000. Although makers like Saiga will do a nice new one for £800-1000.

See reply to oki for general facts.

This post has been edited by scotsman: 10 January 2019 - 08:05 PM

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#24 User is offline   scotsman 

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Posted 10 January 2019 - 05:40 PM

View Postoki, on 10 January 2019 - 02:52 PM, said:

Thought I read that semi auto rifles are legal in the U.K. but only if they are not Center firehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2bMn_5c4oKs. Which of coarse by in large limits you to a .22LR.

Provided that nothing has changed(this article is 8 or 9 years old).
https://www.bbc.com/news/10220974

Michael Ryan's massacre of 16 people in Hungerford in 1987 led to the banning of all modern semi-automatic rifles, the range of guns that can be fired rapidly without needing to be reloaded.

Nine years later, Thomas Hamilton killed 16 schoolchildren and their teacher when he opened fire at a school in Dunblane. Parliament banned all handguns and there is now a mandatory five-year jail sentence for possession.

Provided this guy is correct.... it also answers some questions.
https://www.youtube....h?v=2bMn_5c4oKs

Would seem your limited to .22 for any type of semi auto rifle.


I have heard of what is referred to as single pull which is a semi auto rifle, but you have to pull the bolt or charging handle for each shot.
https://www.youtube....h?v=F49kyRdR_Jc
This is one the guy in the first video specifically mentioned.

Unless the upper is made as to not accommodate a standard AR15 bolt Carrier, it would largely be a matter of installing a gas return tube and obtaining or making a bolt that has a normal carrier key. Even then, just get your hands on a CNC machine and can make an entire upper and or needed parts.

Oki


1--Not all handguns are illegal. Most are.
2--Only on the mainland, NI has a separate gun law and is actually the best place to live in the UK re guns. CC even allowed. CC in the rest of the UK very restricted.
3--Its five years for ILLEGAL gun (of any illegal sort) possession. If you have a handgun or any gun licence, you are OK. There are some 14-15,000 UK handguns.
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#25 User is offline   Howsithangin 

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Posted 10 January 2019 - 11:03 PM

View Postscotsman, on 09 January 2019 - 11:56 AM, said:

Nope.

Firstly, the UK/Euro figures have been discussed here before. The way the UK and some Euro countries classify crime and violent crime skews the figures. According to such figures, countries like Finland, Austria, the UK and others all have societies much more violent than the US or Canada, which is patent nonsense. The biggest violent UK crime is against property, not people.

The UK's figures are pretty simple: in a population of 65 million, there are approx. on average 700-800 murders a year. The UK's murder numbers have DROPPED since the early 00's, when they peaked at around 1000 murders a year. UK gun crime is DOWN and has been since the same period. UK gun homicide is also down. The UK has less than 100 gun murders last recorded year.

700-800 murders out of 65 million. Approx 85% of killers known to victim.
92 gun murders out of 65 million.
No mass shooting since 2010. And just four in the UK in its history (1987, 1989, 1996, 2010).
120 children a year murdered in the UK out of around 13 million under 18s.
Six children a year murdered by strangers. The same number as in 1970. Nearly 50 years ago.

Sorry to disappoint, but the UK is not and has never been a violent nation. Certainly not by North American standards and even arguably by European.
Murder down, gun crime down, gun homicide down. Almost 20 years since the UK's most violent peak.


How them knives and acid attacks coming?

knife attacks on the rise--BBC

1,000 knife attacks per month in London

2 acid attacks per day

My point in posting these is not to slur the once-great nation of the UK, but to bring you back to Earth. It's not all wine and roses ale over there.
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#26 User is offline   Ticked@TinselTown 

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Posted 11 January 2019 - 12:53 AM

View PostHowsithangin, on 10 January 2019 - 11:03 PM, said:

How them knives and acid attacks coming?

knife attacks on the rise--BBC

1,000 knife attacks per month in London

2 acid attacks per day

My point in posting these is not to slur the once-great nation of the UK, but to bring you back to Earth. It's not all wine and roses ale over there.


Well, you know, we're all uneducated, gun toting heathens over here on this side of the Pond and we require the edification and dumbing down of all facts pertaining to the UK to be reminded of their consistent superiority at every level of everything... :rolleyes:
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#27 User is offline   MontyPython 

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Posted 11 January 2019 - 01:53 AM

View Postscotsman, on 10 January 2019 - 05:26 PM, said:

http://www.ukpreppersguide.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/BzYr9RJCMAAMRmw.jpg


Dang, the only one that's any good for personal defense is the one that's illegal.

:(
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#28 User is offline   grimreefer 

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Posted 11 January 2019 - 06:06 AM

View PostMontyPython, on 11 January 2019 - 01:53 AM, said:

Dang, the only one that's any good for personal defense is the one that's illegal.

:(

Revolvers are good for carry, if possible (as long as the barrel doesn't have to be a mile long like pictured) and the shotgun is good for home defense if you don't mind a bunch of drywall work after the fact. B)
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#29 User is offline   MontyPython 

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Posted 11 January 2019 - 11:16 AM

View Postgrimreefer, on 11 January 2019 - 06:06 AM, said:

Revolvers are good for carry, if possible (as long as the barrel doesn't have to be a mile long like pictured) and the shotgun is good for home defense if you don't mind a bunch of drywall work after the fact. B)


Oh I agree. In fact, I much prefer revolvers to semi-autos. (My own handgun is a Ruger New Model Blackhawk .357. Sweet!)

But unfortunately the only revolver pictured has that mile-long barrel, which I suspect is why it's legal. If it was as short a barrel as the semi-auto, I suspect it would be illegal too.

B)
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#30 User is online   oki 

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Posted 11 January 2019 - 11:20 AM

View Postscotsman, on 10 January 2019 - 05:40 PM, said:

1--Not all handguns are illegal. Most are.
2--Only on the mainland, NI has a separate gun law and is actually the best place to live in the UK re guns. CC even allowed. CC in the rest of the UK very restricted.
3--Its five years for ILLEGAL gun (of any illegal sort) possession. If you have a handgun or any gun licence, you are OK. There are some 14-15,000 UK handguns.



One thing to clarify though... here bolt action is literally grabbing the handle first rotating it up, pull the bolt back, loading the new round pushing it forward and bring the handle down. The only time I have see a single pull type rifle at all was on TV during the last Olympics.
From what is and isn't legal it's pretty obvious the people that wrote it didn't know a whole lot about firearms.
In a mass close range/shooting a shotgun is absolutely devastating as are larger caliber revolvers. Plus, with basic machine/metal working skills and materials you can do some pretty easy modifications to a single pull or even traditional bolt action rifle that can give you a very high rate of fire. Almost as fast a semi auto. What makes them(bolt actions) more dangerous is the fact that they shoot a much much higher power round. Ones that can easily go through one person and hit a second if they are in the trajectory. A two for one. Not criticizing, you as you don't make the laws. Just speaking from a ballistics point of view and someone who likes to tinker with things.

I am guessing this rifle is okay
https://vistapointe....-m91-rifle.html

But how about these?
https://www.youtube....h?v=cua3NrMPV4Q

I can tell you with experience that these pack a much bigger punch than an AR.

Oki
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#31 User is online   oki 

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Posted 11 January 2019 - 11:22 AM

View PostMontyPython, on 11 January 2019 - 11:16 AM, said:

Oh I agree. In fact, I much prefer revolvers to semi-autos. (My own handgun is a Ruger New Model Blackhawk .357. Sweet!)

But unfortunately the only revolver pictured has that mile-long barrel, which I suspect is why it's legal. If it was as short a barrel as the semi-auto, I suspect it would be illegal too.

B)



I think your right about barrel length, thought I read something about that being a determining factor. But, don't take this as truth as I am not %100 sure. But, none the less a .357 in the hands of someone who has a moderate amount of skill is as or even more dangerous than pretty much any semi auto pistol as it is much more powerful.

Oki
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#32 User is offline   MontyPython 

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Posted 11 January 2019 - 11:27 AM

View Postoki, on 11 January 2019 - 11:22 AM, said:

I think your right about barrel length, thought I read something about that being a determining factor. But, don't take this as truth as I am not %100 sure. But, none the less a .357 in the hands of someone who has a moderate amount of skill is as or even more dangerous than pretty much any semi auto pistol as it is much more powerful.

Oki


:yes:

And rest assured, LOL, I have a moderate amount of skill...

;)
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#33 User is online   oki 

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Posted 11 January 2019 - 11:50 AM

View PostMontyPython, on 11 January 2019 - 11:27 AM, said:

:yes:

And rest assured, LOL, I have a moderate amount of skill...

;)



Well, before this thread takes it's inevitable turn to the 'dark side' I will admit I am much better with my long barreled weapon(s) then anything a short one(barrel), much less practice with a smaller gun per sei...

My link

Oki

This post has been edited by oki: 11 January 2019 - 11:51 AM

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#34 User is offline   MontyPython 

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Posted 11 January 2019 - 11:57 AM

View Postoki, on 11 January 2019 - 11:50 AM, said:

Well, before this thread takes it's inevitable turn to the 'dark side' I will admit I am much better with my long barreled weapon(s) then anything a short one(barrel), much less practice with a smaller gun per sei...

My link

Oki


Exact opposite here. Most of my practice/experience/skill is with handguns (especially revolvers), next-most with sawed-off shotguns, least of all with long guns/rifles.

B)
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#35 User is online   oki 

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Posted 11 January 2019 - 12:46 PM

View PostMontyPython, on 11 January 2019 - 11:57 AM, said:

Exact opposite here. Most of my practice/experience/skill is with handguns (especially revolvers), next-most with sawed-off shotguns, least of all with long guns/rifles.

B)


That is often the case when you go from smaller/rural areas to larger more populated places.
In part because there ain't anything to hunt in a city, and in part because there ain't many places to shoot much less a long gun.

I can TO A POINT excuse someone who has little to no knowledge of firearms and does not or misunderstands things. But, it's another story when they act like they know or refuse to even listen. I have also learned that if I can figure out ways around things, or how to modify something to make it just as deadly but still legal or easy to change back and forth (illegal to legal) then so have others. And, this is a perfect example of law makers not knowing a damn thing about the subject matter and only making laws to look good in the eyes of others who know even less.

Case in point.
Mosin Nagant 91/30 surplus WWII Rifle(Russian) some people love em' some people hate em' either way they can be bought for around $140-150 range.
In a stock configuration they are a bolt action long gun with an internal five round magazine. Stripper clip or one round at a time loading.
Rate of fire, depends in part on the user. BUT, they shoot a very very hard hitting 7.62X54R round that ballistics is just under a 30.06(an extremely popular Deer and other big game round).

Pay $200 for an aftermarket stock that comes with a 10 round detachable box type magazine and know in the eyes of many it's suddenly illegal.
Bolt mods that will run you $50-100 on top of that and you can actually fire at pretty high rate, no not as fast as a semi auto but keep in mind the kick, muzzle blast, and travel pretty much prevent fast firing as it is. Do a little custom metal working on the bolt/handle and you can easily have it sitting right beside and behind the trigger enough that it is in the palm of your hand will still squeezing the trigger. No reaching for the bolt.

This is a cheap rifle with the power to go through engine blocks.
But yet it is less dangerous than AR-15 solely because rate of fire and capacity. One of the most interesting comments I ever heard is this.
Ever since we went to M16 platform we have had to treat many more wounded enemy soldiers then we did in WWII with the M1 Garand.

This will give you a better idea of the ballistics differences between the AR15 and a standard hunting rifle.
https://www.youtube....h?v=kfwZ7VWC8Kg

Oki
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#36 User is offline   scotsman 

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Posted 11 January 2019 - 10:32 PM

View PostHowsithangin, on 10 January 2019 - 11:03 PM, said:

How them knives and acid attacks coming?

knife attacks on the rise--BBC

1,000 knife attacks per month in London

2 acid attacks per day

My point in posting these is not to slur the once-great nation of the UK, but to bring you back to Earth. It's not all wine and roses ale over there.


Never said it was. Have always said like any nation, we have our problems. Knife and acid crime being two.
But a nation with less than 100 gun murders and about 700 murders out of 65m folk is a pretty safe nation IMO.

Yep, London. London IS a violent city, no denying. As I said, Mayor Nero, sorry Khan, is no secret jihadi, he is simply a useless ****. And an oily media who*e.

The UK is still a great nation. As is the US.

View PostTicked@TinselTown, on 11 January 2019 - 12:53 AM, said:

Well, you know, we're all uneducated, gun toting heathens over here on this side of the Pond and we require the edification and dumbing down of all facts pertaining to the UK to be reminded of their consistent superiority at every level of everything... :rolleyes:


Well, I aim to please.
:P
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#37 User is offline   scotsman 

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Posted 11 January 2019 - 10:34 PM

View Postoki, on 11 January 2019 - 11:20 AM, said:

One thing to clarify though... here bolt action is literally grabbing the handle first rotating it up, pull the bolt back, loading the new round pushing it forward and bring the handle down. The only time I have see a single pull type rifle at all was on TV during the last Olympics.
From what is and isn't legal it's pretty obvious the people that wrote it didn't know a whole lot about firearms.
In a mass close range/shooting a shotgun is absolutely devastating as are larger caliber revolvers. Plus, with basic machine/metal working skills and materials you can do some pretty easy modifications to a single pull or even traditional bolt action rifle that can give you a very high rate of fire. Almost as fast a semi auto. What makes them(bolt actions) more dangerous is the fact that they shoot a much much higher power round. Ones that can easily go through one person and hit a second if they are in the trajectory. A two for one. Not criticizing, you as you don't make the laws. Just speaking from a ballistics point of view and someone who likes to tinker with things.

I am guessing this rifle is okay
https://vistapointe....-m91-rifle.html

But how about these?
https://www.youtube....h?v=cua3NrMPV4Q

I can tell you with experience that these pack a much bigger punch than an AR.

Oki


Straight pull is just the current term for UK rifles that are adjusted versions of what you can own semi or full auto. AR's, AKs etc. Its probably not a great term of description.
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#38 User is online   oki 

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Posted 12 January 2019 - 12:27 AM

View Postscotsman, on 11 January 2019 - 10:34 PM, said:

Straight pull is just the current term for UK rifles that are adjusted versions of what you can own semi or full auto. AR's, AKs etc. Its probably not a great term of description.


What I don't get is how one firearm which can be legal simply because it has a slightly lower rate of fire, might take a little bit longer to reload, but packs one hell of a more punch. Perfect example is a Lee Enfield .303 British vs an AR15. 5.56/.223 vs a .303 British?

To anyone who thinks that you can't rapid fire a traditional bolt action...
https://www.youtube....h?v=PsDLjfA1Ylw

https://www.youtube....h?v=PsDLjfA1Ylw

With the second video these are all aimed shots.

Modify the bolt handle a little, basic machine work that any tinkerer with access to basic machine tools and you don't even have to drop the rifle from your shoulder to cycle the action.

Still though... would the rifles I asked about in my previous post be legal? Yes or no I am curious to learn why or why not.
One thing that does blow my mind is the shot gun picture appears to be a Mossberg 930 series. Semi auto, 7 shell capacity.
How is that legal as you put slugs in it and it is well above the .22 Caliber limit? If mass shooting is someones goal it would be a very ideal weapon as slugs at close range are extremely devastating. In these parts 12 Gauge and even 20 Gauge Slugs are very popular with deer hunters.

Plo
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#39 User is offline   grimreefer 

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Posted 12 January 2019 - 01:28 AM

View Postoki, on 12 January 2019 - 12:27 AM, said:

One thing that does blow my mind is the shot gun picture appears to be a Mossberg 930 series. Semi auto, 7 shell capacity.
How is that legal as you put slugs in it and it is well above the .22 Caliber limit? If mass shooting is someones goal it would be a very ideal weapon as slugs at close range are extremely devastating. In these parts 12 Gauge and even 20 Gauge Slugs are very popular with deer hunters.

Plo

Yeah, I'm trying to figure the reasoning behind that too since a semi-auto shotgun would be far more devastating in a crowd than most semi-auto rifles, even with "just" shot shells. :blink:
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#40 User is offline   MontyPython 

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Posted 12 January 2019 - 03:37 AM

View Postgrimreefer, on 12 January 2019 - 01:28 AM, said:

View Postoki, on 12 January 2019 - 12:27 AM, said:

One thing that does blow my mind is the shot gun picture appears to be a Mossberg 930 series. Semi auto, 7 shell capacity.
How is that legal as you put slugs in it and it is well above the .22 Caliber limit? If mass shooting is someones goal it would be a very ideal weapon as slugs at close range are extremely devastating. In these parts 12 Gauge and even 20 Gauge Slugs are very popular with deer hunters.


Yeah, I'm trying to figure the reasoning behind that too since a semi-auto shotgun would be far more devastating in a crowd than most semi-auto rifles, even with "just" shot shells. :blink:


Meh, don't look for "reasoning" behind gun laws/restrictions/bans/"control"/etc. Regardless whether we're talking about Europe, America, UK or pretty much anywhere else, aren't most gun "control" laws pushed by the people with the least knowledge of, and experience with, guns? People with irrational fears thereof? In other words, hoplophobes? You're not gonna discover a whole lot of "reason" from that bunch.

B)
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