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Donated Organs Should Go To US Residents Before Illegal Immigrants, Says New GOP Bill Rate Topic: -----

#81 User is online   zurg 

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Posted 21 April 2018 - 10:56 AM

View PostBuckwheat Jones, on 21 April 2018 - 09:47 AM, said:

I agree with that and don’t care who gets my stuff when I’m gone. They will need it more than I do.

I agree in principle as well. I like the concept of "luck" in life - although there may be things behind the scenes so to speak to make it look all coincidental without it being fully so, but that's a matter of belief and probably for another time.

However, regarding illegals, while I continue to think that the best nearby match to the harvested organ may be the best method for choosing the recipient, which in principle includes illegals, I'd also not want it to be a well-known policy. I don't think we should effectively encourage people to come here for a free transplant. I can see it..."grandma needs a new kidney so that's why we, her three children, our spouses, the grandchildren and cousins just had to come along to support her".

This post has been edited by zurg: 21 April 2018 - 10:57 AM

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#82 User is offline   Timothy 

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Posted 21 April 2018 - 11:52 PM

View PostBuckwheat Jones, on 20 April 2018 - 09:39 PM, said:

I am on my phone, so I cannot reply the standard way. Please bear with me:

You said:

The problem with your reasoning is that you are confusing two different questions:

1) Who pays for the procedure to transplant the organ.

2) Who gets access to an organ to do a transplant in the first place.

Yes, the procedure costs money, and a lot of it. But the organ itself is given for free by the donor.

My response:

I am very clear on my posting. If any part of the transplant process is borne by the taxpayer, and it may well be if illegals receive any government assistance, then taxpayers have the right to weigh in on the matter without being subjected to prejudicial statements regarding their motives. And this is where you have failed. You’ve thrown the dirty sock of intolerance at the wall to see if it sticks when you don’t have any evidence of bigotry from posters here.

Unfortunately, this is the first tool that progressives turn to when they come across someone with whom they disagree and I don’t know why you do this if you have logical arguments that could carry the day.

Illegal aliens do not have a right to be in the United States. Since they have no right to be here, they have no right to be in our hospitals nor any right to tax-funded benefits which transplant procedures may entail.

You do understand this, but you don’t like it. And that’s fine, but you have to respect that the law is law. And if you want to see the law get changed then do something within legal means to change it instead of presuming to know the oppositions motives and calling them bigots.

That’s lazy, sloppy and should be beneath you.

1) I haven't said anything about anyone's general "right to weigh in". That's a straw man argument that is talking about something much broader than what I am talking about, and doesn't address the substance of anything that I have said.

2) There are multiple examples of intolerance here. Not only supporting policy that is based on the premise that illegal immigrants have less of a right to live, but suggesting that they aren't even suitable to give organs.

3) You keep talking about the cost of the PROCEDURE. That is not the issue here. The issue is what order people are on on the waitlist for an organ. Organs that are not limited by any financial measure but by the availability of human donors. If you want ability to pay for the procedure to be a factor in what priority people have on the wait list, make that argument. But it has no direct relationship to immigration status. There are any number of reasons why an illegal immigrant might be able to pay, or a legal resident or citizen might not be able to pay.

4) Yes, people often use the accusation of racism or bigotry to shut down discussion. On the other hand, people often use that as a reason to avoid the subject even when it is legitimately relevant.

View PostTaggart Transcontinental, on 20 April 2018 - 10:00 PM, said:

Lets prove nonsense comment one wrong. Hispanics including Mexican and other third world countries from the South America's are:

https://immigration....lation-2012.pdf



It's got neat charts and graphs in it so even Timbo can understand that yes Timmy the South American's and Mexican make up the VAST majority of people illegally sneaking into our country.

All Countries: 11 Million

Mexico: 7 Million.

Yeah that looks like The VAST MAJORITY to me.

I said that the perception isn't entirely inaccurate.

Quote

As far as your idiot triggered comment about leave immigration status out of it? Sure I will leave immigration status out of it as soon as immigration status isn't the problem anymore. I have a lot more experience on the road than you do so when you can speak from a position of experience instead of charts and graphs you can explain to me what you see, until then I will ensure immigration status is at the forefront when it is the issue.

What does immigration status have to do with drinking and driving, directly?

Quote

Third you have no idea what you are talking about. You have no idea what I do on a daily basis and you have no idea about my application of the law. I will not ever explain myself to anyone like you. You are dogmatic and lost. Of the two of us only one of us demonstrates a level of assumption that is on the ledge. That would be you.

I have an idea of what kind of attitudes are indicative of someone who doesn't give people a fair shake as individuals, but judges people based on biases against a group.

If you subscribe to the ridiculous position that the organs of illegal immigrants are so tainted that you wouldn't accept one to save your life, it suggests a degree of irrational hatred that makes it very unlikely that you act impartially and fairly as a police officer.

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Fourth if you don't value your American citizenship, renounce it, leave the nation and find one that is suitable to your paradigm. You are a "free man" at least in the physical sense, not so much intellectually because you are enslaved by a dogma that knows nothing but compliance to group think. It must scare you that there are American's that actually know what the Constitution is and what it means. You certainly have no idea. So have a nice time on your lecture circuit.

Now you're just rambling.

View PostTaggart Transcontinental, on 20 April 2018 - 10:13 PM, said:

You throw this word bigot around and you have no idea what it means. You THINK you do, you toss it around like it's a soft form of racism. The actual definition is a perception based definition. NOT factual. This is the definition of bigot: "a person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices". Based on who's opinion? Do you proclaim to be so enlightened as to determine that other people's opinions are not valid? How bigoted of you.

Oh boy the whole "intolerance of intolerance is just bad as intolerance" argument.

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The rest of this BS in this third paragraph? You claim I am erecting a strawman? I am out of my league with strawman erection. You are the viagra salesman of strawmen. And you are full of crap.

Illegal Aliens are here illegally, that means they ARE second class people in this nation because they violated the law to gain entry and then they continue to violate the law on a daily basis to remain here. You can give me the lip service that it's only a "misdemeanor" or civil charge, miss a court date and that misdemeanor or civil charge becomes a felony fast. They all miss their court dates.

Breaking a law doesn't make someone less of a human being or less worthy of life.

Quote

Secondly I want to see a chart or graph proving that illegals in the US are donating their organs and at what rate versus the citizens of the US. This is another nonsensical strawman that you cannot prove. There is no data to support that position either way so it's simply a contrivance.

http://journalofethi...msoc1-0804.html

I posted this earlier by the way.

View PostMontyPython, on 21 April 2018 - 12:04 AM, said:

The indoctrination is strong with this one. :rolleyes:

So when "bigotry" fails, you resort to "nativism".

The only thing that failed was your attempt to set up racism as a straw man argument.

Quote

Sorry, that's bullsh*t too. There's nothing wrong ("bigoted" or "nativist" or anything else) about Americans putting America and Americans first.

This is so broad and vague as to be meaningless. There are many different ways that could manifest itself and those could be good or bad.

Quote

As pointed out by others (and by myself in previous posts), illegals are here illegally. They have no right whatsoever to be here at all.

Which has f*ck all to do with whether they should get fair and equitable treatment when it comes to receiving organ donations. What matters is that is whether they would contribute their organs into that system in the same circumstances where a citizen would. This is something that is much more important and significant than the issue of nationality. It is a matter of someone giving a significant part of their body to someone else in order to save that person's life. The job of the medical community is to focus on saving life. It's not their job to consider nationality.

Quote

I realize resorting to that kind of mindless crap is standard leftist boilerplate, but it just doesn't work on anybody who has the full allotment of common sense.

B)

It's interesting that the main response people have is outrage that anyone could make the accusation.

View PostHowsithangin, on 21 April 2018 - 10:51 AM, said:

Glib response.

1) The organ viability window following the passing of the donor is measured in hours. There s not time to test for all of the possible diseases. This is why the testing of the donor is done well ahead of time.

1a) Good luck coordinating with people who don't want to be found to arrange for the tests.

1b) What tests have been developed? How are they conducted? Are there tests for the tropical diseases not endemic to the US?

1c) Who pays for these expensive tests and associated hospital stays? (I know the answer but I want to see you type it)

2) That is an individual decision to some extent. However, if one has created a vector by transplanting an organ containing a communicable disease, the answer to the public is no.

1) That's a fair point.

1A) If they are donating organs don't you think they have more important things to worry about?

1B) I'm not sure. On the flip side, how do you know those diseases are a statistically significant problem?

1C) Whoever is paying for the operation for the recipient.

2) How do you know this is a statistically significant problem?
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#83 User is offline   MontyPython 

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Posted 22 April 2018 - 01:12 AM

LOL

I'm glad I didn't grow up at a time when people were hopelessly indoctrinated to ignore all real factors in a desperate search for non-existent bigotry under every rock and behind every tree.

But I cry for the future of my once-great country.

<_<
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#84 User is offline   Howsithangin 

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Posted 22 April 2018 - 02:15 AM

View PostMontyPython, on 22 April 2018 - 01:12 AM, said:

LOL

I'm glad I didn't grow up at a time when people were hopelessly indoctrinated to ignore all real factors in a desperate search for non-existent bigotry under every rock and behind every tree.

But I cry for the future of my once-great country.

<_<

Daily
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#85 User is online   zurg 

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Posted 22 April 2018 - 08:38 AM

It's just slightly amusing that Timothy is so biased against regular Americans in favor of illegal immigrants. If regular Americans say that, based on legal residence status, they should be in line to receive organ donations before illegals, that to Timothy is not only wrong but bigoted.

After a person dies, there's a practical time window with a limited set of possible organ receivers. What I hear MOST people arguing for here is that among the possible receivers, legal residents get priority. Timothy says this is bigotry.

There's an underlying assumption (which Timothy will deny but it's clearly there) that such regular Americans are worse as humans than the illegal immigrants. Timothy thinks that poor immigrants' plight to improve their situations by coming to the US is a more noble cause than regular Americans'' plight to keep illegal immigration under control. Thus, Timothy makes the assumption that the illegals are more fair minded than the regular Americans who are already here.

Let's take an example. Let's say we make organ donations freely available to illegals who reciprocate by putting themselves on the donor list. Timothy would say that's extremely fair - thus the illegal would get an organ donation AND ave the procedure paid for, which I'm absolutely certain Timothy would think was a fair method. While he thinks regular Americans are bigots, he would not stop to think that illegals could be schemers - they are very noble and courageous humans only trying to improve their lot in life. In reality, the word of such a program would quickly spread through the illegal community and abuses would follow. Illegals with failing organs and driver licenses would sign up en mass while those with heathy organs would not. They'd receive and not donate - but this is not something Timothy would want to discuss.

This post has been edited by zurg: 22 April 2018 - 08:40 AM

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#86 User is offline   Timothy 

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Posted 22 April 2018 - 10:12 AM

View PostMontyPython, on 22 April 2018 - 01:12 AM, said:

LOL

I'm glad I didn't grow up at a time when people were hopelessly indoctrinated to ignore all real factors in a desperate search for non-existent bigotry under every rock and behind every tree.

But I cry for the future of my once-great country.

<_<

I'm glad that most Americans aren't hopelessly indoctrinated to ignore all real factors having to do with illegal immigrants in search for any type of excuse to be hateful and discriminatory against them, no matter how far flung it is from having anything to do with immigration.

I miss the days under Bush when the Republican party was more reasonable on this issue.

You have yet to acknowledge that illegal immigrants also contribute to the system, or explain why they shouldn't get equal access if they are equal contributors.

View Postzurg, on 22 April 2018 - 08:38 AM, said:

It's just slightly amusing that Timothy is so biased against regular Americans in favor of illegal immigrants. If regular Americans say that, based on legal residence status, they should be in line to receive organ donations before illegals, that to Timothy is not only wrong but bigoted.

After a person dies, there's a practical time window with a limited set of possible organ receivers. What I hear MOST people arguing for here is that among the possible receivers, legal residents get priority. Timothy says this is bigotry.

There's an underlying assumption (which Timothy will deny but it's clearly there) that such regular Americans are worse as humans than the illegal immigrants. Timothy thinks that poor immigrants' plight to improve their situations by coming to the US is a more noble cause than regular Americans'' plight to keep illegal immigration under control. Thus, Timothy makes the assumption that the illegals are more fair minded than the regular Americans who are already here.

Let's take an example. Let's say we make organ donations freely available to illegals who reciprocate by putting themselves on the donor list. Timothy would say that's extremely fair - thus the illegal would get an organ donation AND ave the procedure paid for, which I'm absolutely certain Timothy would think was a fair method. While he thinks regular Americans are bigots, he would not stop to think that illegals could be schemers - they are very noble and courageous humans only trying to improve their lot in life. In reality, the word of such a program would quickly spread through the illegal community and abuses would follow. Illegals with failing organs and driver licenses would sign up en mass while those with heathy organs would not. They'd receive and not donate - but this is not something Timothy would want to discuss.

Ahh, your usual lame string of straw man arguments. I can't resist the urge to respond with a few points even though I know you are trolling and probably won't make an honest attempt to respond.

1) I do believe that the motives of most illegal immigrants in coming here are more noble than the motives of nativists who have an irrational degree of hostility towards them. Fortunately, most Americans aren't nativists, don't have such an uncompromising hostile attitude, recognize their humanity and the value they provide to our society, and want some kind of accomodation to be made for people who came here illegally.

2) The idea that people would collectively scheme to not donate is silly. What do they get out of not donating?

3) By and large illegall immigrants are no more or less noble than any other group of people. They are human beings as subject to both positive and negative emotions, motives, and instincts as anyone else.

4) I would be open to the idea of a system where people that are listed as donors get preferential treatment if they ever need a organ donation. That's not what I was talking about though.
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#87 User is online   zurg 

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Posted 22 April 2018 - 10:32 AM

View PostTimothy, on 22 April 2018 - 10:12 AM, said:

Ahh, your usual lame string of straw man arguments. I can't resist the urge to respond with a few points even though I know you are trolling and probably won't make an honest attempt to respond.

1) I do believe that the motives of most illegal immigrants in coming here are more noble than the motives of nativists who have an irrational degree of hostility towards them. Fortunately, most Americans aren't nativists, don't have such an uncompromising hostile attitude, recognize their humanity and the value they provide to our society, and want some kind of accomodation to be made for people who came here illegally.

2) The idea that people would collectively scheme to not donate is silly. What do they get out of not donating?

3) By and large illegall immigrants are no more or less noble than any other group of people. They are human beings as subject to both positive and negative emotions, motives, and instincts as anyone else.

4) I would be open to the idea of a system where people that are listed as donors get preferential treatment if they ever need a organ donation. That's not what I was talking about though.

0) immediate accusation of trolling, without a shred of evidence.

1) thanks for admitting that I was correct - despite the moving of goalposts from bigot to nativists. BTW, this also validates that I wasn't trolling. You're 0 for 2 so far. And this is significant, because you admit that fundamentally you think illegal immigrants are more noble than regular legal Americans who oppose illegal immigration. Let that sink in. I appreciate your telling the truth though. Thanks.

2) by signing up to donate when they actually are in need of an organ gives them a chance to live longer and healthier, quite possibly without payment. Not signing up to donate until they have a problem is just another not-coming-out-of-shadows effort. 0-3.

3) this statement is just filler blablabla. It's meaningless, but it's typical of your style. Rambling without a point.

4) thanks for further confirming my point. 0-4.
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#88 User is offline   Vandervecken 

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Posted 22 April 2018 - 02:21 PM

Of course.
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#89 User is offline   MontyPython 

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Posted 22 April 2018 - 09:57 PM

View PostTimothy, on 22 April 2018 - 10:12 AM, said:

I'm glad that most Americans aren't hopelessly indoctrinated to ignore all real factors having to do with illegal immigrants in search for any type of excuse to be hateful and discriminatory against them, no matter how far flung it is from having anything to do with immigration.

I miss the days under Bush when the Republican party was more reasonable on this issue.

You have yet to acknowledge that illegal immigrants also contribute to the system, or explain why they shouldn't get equal access if they are equal contributors.


*yawn*

First it's "bigotry". When that fails, it's "nativism". When that fails, it's "hateful". It's like arguing with a retarded person who just hasn't got the ability to see beyond what he wants to see.

And that's why I couldn't help being instantly reminded of this thread earlier today. I've mentioned my "special needs" 4-yr-old grandson a jillion times around here, and today we spent the afternoon with him (and his mom & sister), and we had a go-around that was just like this thread:

Grandson: "I wanna watch Peppa Pig."

Me: "I'm watching the news right now."

"But I wanna watch Peppa Pig!"

"But Peppa Pig isn't on right now."

"I wanna watch Peppa Pig!!"

"We can't watch it now, even if we wanted to. It's just not on."

"So change the channel! I wanna watch Peppa Pig!!!"

"It's not on, on ANY channel. Even if we changed the channel, Peppa Pig just isn't on yet. It comes on later tonight."

"WAAAHHH! I WANNA WATCH PEPPA PIG!!!"

And so on...It was no use getting "angry", because he's "special needs" and just can't grasp the facts. So it was pointless arguing about it. There just wasn't any "getting through". I had no alternative but to just let him pout and be grumpy. Even if I wanted to please him, there was no way to give him what he wanted. We didn't have any Peppa Pig videotapes or DVDs or whatever, and there were no channels broadcasting it. He was being completely unreasonable, but there was no way to make him understand why it was unreasonable; He just didn't have the mental lucidity.

And so, as I said, I couldn't help being immediately reminded of this thread. You are simply so bound and determined to assign "bigotry/nativism/hatefulness/whatever" to any disagreement with your position, it's just pointless to keep arguing with you.

:comfort:

This post has been edited by MontyPython: 23 April 2018 - 05:38 AM

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#90 User is offline   Italian Biker 

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Posted 23 April 2018 - 07:19 AM

View PostLadybird, on 21 April 2018 - 09:37 AM, said:

When it comes to non living organ donation, no, I don't think allowing people to stipulate what sort are permitted to receive the donation should be allowed.

So what happened to "my body, my choice"? And why would you deny me that right to apply it here?
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#91 User is offline   Italian Biker 

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Posted 23 April 2018 - 07:30 AM

Quote

You have yet to acknowledge that illegal immigrants also contribute to the system, or explain why they shouldn't get equal access if they are equal contributors.

Really, are you saying that 100% of illegal immigrants file income taxes?
Are you saying that for the ones that do file, never use a fake or stolen SS number? By doing so, they are breaking even more laws, so how are they contributing to society? Identity theft is a real contribution isn't it?
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#92 User is offline   Ladybird 

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Posted 23 April 2018 - 07:52 AM

View PostItalian Biker, on 23 April 2018 - 07:19 AM, said:

So what happened to "my body, my choice"? And why would you deny me that right to apply it here?

If you’re dead, what’s it to you?

No ones talking about forcing anyone to donate (or not donate) an organ.
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#93 User is offline   Italian Biker 

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Posted 23 April 2018 - 09:11 AM

View PostLadybird, on 23 April 2018 - 07:52 AM, said:

If you’re dead, what’s it to you?

No ones talking about forcing anyone to donate (or not donate) an organ.

I'm not talking about being forced into organ donation. I'm listed as an organ donor. My father was a heart transplant patient, so don't think that organ donation is not something I don't care about.
I'm saying I should a have a right, just as in my personal property would be willed to those of my choosing, I should be able to say that my organs will not be used to extend or benefit the lives of heinous scum like murderers, rapists, child molesters and other criminals.
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#94 User is offline   Buckwheat Jones 

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Posted 23 April 2018 - 12:16 PM

View PostTimothy, on 21 April 2018 - 11:52 PM, said:

1) I haven't said anything about anyone's general "right to weigh in". That's a straw man argument that is talking about something much broader than what I am talking about, and doesn't address the substance of anything that I have said.

2) There are multiple examples of intolerance here. Not only supporting policy that is based on the premise that illegal immigrants have less of a right to live, but suggesting that they aren't even suitable to give organs.

3) You keep talking about the cost of the PROCEDURE. That is not the issue here. The issue is what order people are on on the waitlist for an organ. Organs that are not limited by any financial measure but by the availability of human donors. If you want ability to pay for the procedure to be a factor in what priority people have on the wait list, make that argument. But it has no direct relationship to immigration status. There are any number of reasons why an illegal immigrant might be able to pay, or a legal resident or citizen might not be able to pay.

4) Yes, people often use the accusation of racism or bigotry to shut down discussion. On the other hand, people often use that as a reason to avoid the subject even when it is legitimately relevant.



1. No, Tim you didn’t. I did, however, because I called BS on you here:

———————
If anyone wonders why people accuse many opponents of illegal immigrants of being bigots, it's sh*t like this where they drag immigration status into something that has nothing to do with immigration status. It is mean spirited, pure and simple.

——————————

You made a very large assumption and presumed to know the motives of people who oppose your position. I’ve demonstrated why this is a prejudice on your part, and said that people have a right to weigh in to the contrary without being painted as racist/bigots/white supemacists or whatever nom du jour you people have selected this week.

2. One mans intolerance is another’s disagreement. And that’s a large part of what goes on here...discussion because we disagree. Intolerance of controversial ideas is good because we usually don’t spend much energy on commonly held ideas lest this place turn into abackslapping contest.

Please show me particular instances of “intolerance” in this thread because some people don’t like brown people. Or that brown people are so subhuman as to not be worthy of organ transplants.

3. Tim, the waiting list is immaterial without the kidney, and the kidney is immaterial without the procedure. The procedure is the point. The organ isn’t. If you are an illegal, and you can pay for your transplant, then (I say this for the sake of discussion, although I will go out on a short limb and say most of them could not) the taxpayers have no sayso...except for the fact that you shouldn’t be here in the first place. But if you can pay your own way, good for you.

Can you make a case as to why an illegal alien should get a transplanted organ, subsidized by my taxes, by the way? I’d like to hear an articulated statement with a little more substance than just “people who oppose are simple minded brown people hating bigots.”

4. So if you are against racism, then how does it help to fight racism by avoiding discussions where you talk about racism?

All this is, is another way of saying “Youre racist. You just won’t admit it so I’m not going to drop to your level and explain to you how racist you are and how I know this.” This sounds too much like “you are guilty of implicit bias. Oh, you deny that? See, that’s just evidence of your implicit bias. You can’t see it or smell it or taste it, but you still have it. Because I say so.”

I can’t respect that sort of “logic.” Demonstrate for me, please, where you have evidence of racism in this thread. I haven’t read through every post here so you might find some. But I only know one poster here who has flat out in no uncertain terms admitted to being racist, and I don’t think he’s in here.

This post has been edited by Buckwheat Jones: 23 April 2018 - 12:41 PM

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