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Tree of the knowledge of good and evil Discussion of "original sin" Rate Topic: -----

#21 User is offline   rogerg 

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Posted 08 April 2019 - 04:04 PM

View PostMontyPython, on 08 April 2019 - 03:43 PM, said:

That's a very good point. I'll bow out now, unless you want to continue our discussion. Rest assured I can present plenty more Biblical contradictions and translation mistakes and such which haven't been mentioned yet.

As I said earlier - I am a Christian, I believe in God, believe Jesus Christ is His Son and our Savior. He is certainly my own personal Savior. My point here is not to suggest otherwise. I'm simply pointing out that while the Bible is a great book full of wonderful lessons and instructions on how to live a good and worthy life (as well as lots of exciting stories and adventures), it mustn't be taken literally, as though it was a historically accurate account of mankind.

B)


that while the Bible is a great book full of wonderful lessons and instructions on how to live a good and worthy life (as well as lots of exciting stories and adventures), it mustn't be taken literally, as though it was a historically accurate account of mankind.

Sorry Monty - can't let you leave on that one. You say that you are a Christian and that you believe in Christ and I believe that you sincerely do, but please observe what Christ Himself said:


[Psa 40:7 KJV] 7 Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book [it is] written of me,
[Psa 40:8 KJV] 8 I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law [is] within my heart.


[Heb 10:8 KJV] 8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and [offering] for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure [therein]; which are offered by the law;


Further:

[2Ti 3:16 KJV] 16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
[2Ti 3:17 KJV] 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

[2Pe 1:19-21 KJV] 19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake [as they were] moved by the Holy Ghost.


These verses inform us the Bible is far, far more that you claim it to be.

This post has been edited by rogerg: 08 April 2019 - 04:05 PM

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#22 User is offline   MontyPython 

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Posted 08 April 2019 - 04:09 PM

View Postrogerg, on 08 April 2019 - 04:04 PM, said:

that while the Bible is a great book full of wonderful lessons and instructions on how to live a good and worthy life (as well as lots of exciting stories and adventures), it mustn't be taken literally, as though it was a historically accurate account of mankind.

Sorry Monty - can't let you leave on that one. You say that you are a Christian and that you believe in Christ and I believe that you sincerely do, but please observe what Christ Himself said:


[Psa 40:7 KJV] 7 Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book [it is] written of me,
[Psa 40:8 KJV] 8 I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law [is] within my heart.


[Heb 10:8 KJV] 8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and [offering] for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure [therein]; which are offered by the law;


Further:

[2Ti 3:16 KJV] 16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
[2Ti 3:17 KJV] 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

[2Pe 1:19-21 KJV] 19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake [as they were] moved by the Holy Ghost.


These verses inform us the Bible is far, far more that you claim it to be.


How do any of those things contradict anything I've said?

:scratch:

Edited to add: Surely you understand the concept of circular logic. Well what you've posted here is the quintessential example of circular logic. Suppose I said "I'm always right, and the proof that I'm always right is that I said so, and since I'm always right it must be true!"

Well that's exactly what you're saying above: "The Bible is always accurate, and the proof thereof is that it says so, and since it's always accurate it must be true."

Sorry, that just doesn't work.

B)

This post has been edited by MontyPython: 08 April 2019 - 04:15 PM

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#23 User is offline   rogerg 

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Posted 08 April 2019 - 04:11 PM

View PostMontyPython, on 08 April 2019 - 03:49 PM, said:

Then what about the direct contradictions found in the Bible? For the most obvious example: "Thou Shalt Not Kill", even though God specifically condones killing in LOTS of places in the Bible - Gideon and the Midionites, Joshua at Jericho, David and Goliath and plenty more; And what about all the sins spelled out in Leviticus where God's specifically instructed punishment is death?

There are more, but that seems like a good place to start.

B)


God doesn't condone the murder of the physical body but I think that's what's in view above is spiritual murder - that is, professing a salvation plan apart from Christ's salivation.


In terms of God having someone killed because they broke one of His laws making him worthy of death -- well God gave us life, brought us into this world, and when He's ready, will take us out - His prerogative completely as to when and how
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#24 User is offline   rogerg 

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Posted 08 April 2019 - 04:13 PM

View PostMontyPython, on 08 April 2019 - 04:09 PM, said:

How do any of those things contradict anything I've said?

:scratch:


Hmmmm - well maybe. What the verses say leave nothing outside of the Bible relative to salvation. What you said has gaps I think

This post has been edited by rogerg: 08 April 2019 - 04:13 PM

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#25 User is offline   rogerg 

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Posted 08 April 2019 - 04:19 PM

View PostMontyPython, on 08 April 2019 - 03:49 PM, said:

Then what about the direct contradictions found in the Bible? For the most obvious example: "Thou Shalt Not Kill", even though God specifically condones killing in LOTS of places in the Bible - Gideon and the Midionites, Joshua at Jericho, David and Goliath and plenty more; And what about all the sins spelled out in Leviticus where God's specifically instructed punishment is death?

There are more, but that seems like a good place to start.

B)



Tell you what - just for the fun of it, why don't you play devil's advocate, take my position and reply to me like I'm you?
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#26 User is offline   rogerg 

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Posted 08 April 2019 - 04:26 PM

View PostMontyPython, on 08 April 2019 - 03:49 PM, said:

Then what about the direct contradictions found in the Bible? For the most obvious example: "Thou Shalt Not Kill", even though God specifically condones killing in LOTS of places in the Bible - Gideon and the Midionites, Joshua at Jericho, David and Goliath and plenty more; And what about all the sins spelled out in Leviticus where God's specifically instructed punishment is death?

There are more, but that seems like a good place to start.

B)


Might be a repost - just for the fun of it, why don't you play devil's advocate, take my position and reply to me like you're me and I'm you - gonna need to do some biblical research first though

This post has been edited by rogerg: 08 April 2019 - 04:27 PM

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#27 User is offline   MontyPython 

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Posted 08 April 2019 - 04:36 PM

View Postrogerg, on 08 April 2019 - 04:11 PM, said:

God doesn't condone the murder of the physical body but I think that's what's in view above is spiritual murder - that is, professing a salvation plan apart from Christ's salivation.


In terms of God having someone killed because they broke one of His laws making him worthy of death -- well God gave us life, brought us into this world, and when He's ready, will take us out - His prerogative completely as to when and how


I'm sorry, that's just too weak. It specifically says "Thou SHALT NOT KILL" at one point in the Bible, leaving nothing ambiguous about it. Does He say "most of the time"? Or "not very often"? Nope, nothing ambiguous about it. And yet He condones, and even calls for plenty of killing in plenty of places in the Bible.

Just like He doesn't say "Thou Shalt Not Very Often Worship Other Gods, But It's OK Sometimes"

Or "Thou Shalt Not Steal Except When It's OK"

Etc etc etc. There is no "vagueness" or "ambiguity" about "Thou Shalt Not Kill", and yet God Himself instructs us to kill in other places in the Bible.


View Postrogerg, on 08 April 2019 - 04:13 PM, said:

Hmmmm - well maybe. What the verses say leave nothing outside of the Bible relative to salvation. What you said has gaps I think


I have yet to be shown any such gaps.


View Postrogerg, on 08 April 2019 - 04:19 PM, said:

Tell you what - just for the fun of it, why don't you play devil's advocate, take my position and reply to me like I'm you?


OK, how about this: It's supposed to mean "Thou Shalt Not Murder", and there's a huge difference between murder (i.e. unjustified killing) and killing which is justified because God has condoned it.

Unfortunately, all that would do is present yet another mistaken translation in the Bible: If it's supposed to say "Murder", but it instead says "Kill", doesn't that prove yet again that there are inaccuracies in the Bible due to translation mistakes?

B)

This post has been edited by MontyPython: 08 April 2019 - 04:40 PM

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#28 User is offline   Hieronymous 

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Posted 08 April 2019 - 05:43 PM

View PostLollyMpl, on 08 April 2019 - 03:21 PM, said:

...yet God spoke adult animals and birds and fish and plants into existence. He didn't speak seeds and expect them to grow. Speaking rocks and earth into existence would mean they would have the layers that older earth/rocks/formations would have. He created an adult man and woman, not babies. Obviously, there were grown, fruiting trees....wonder how many tree rings they had from the day they were spoken into being?

But wouldn't it be a dishonest god who said an evening and morning was the first day....but then it really meant a different meaning of time? When the Bible says there is light and dark, and they are called day and night, and it says it's a day....but the sun is not created yet....I tend to say, ok, yep, allrighty then. And I say it's a day. I'm not sure why that's so hard. God also made the sun stay shining for a whole 'nother day once...and not set... He made a donkey talk. He made 3 men in a fire come out alive, not burned, and not smelling like smoke. Some things are pretty weird....and cool....and make zero natural sense. But then, I don't care to serve a natural God....I follow One Who is Supernatural.

Exactly. If we understood God completely, would He really be God?
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#29 User is offline   MontyPython 

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Posted 08 April 2019 - 05:47 PM

View PostHieronymous, on 08 April 2019 - 05:43 PM, said:

Exactly. If we understood God completely, would He really be God?


I don't expect to "understand God completely". But I do know that when something can be proven, repeatedly and consistently, using the very materials and evidence and facts that God Himself deliberately created and left for us to find, how can it not be true?

:scratch:
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#30 User is offline   LollyMpl 

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Posted 08 April 2019 - 07:17 PM

So....to kill. The difference of words and translations is a huge deal....some claim their translation is the only true one. I don't....because I prefer to read things NOT in old, english ways. But when I get tripped up on a word and what it means, I read it in several translations, and then I pull out the old Strong's concordance....which leads me to the greek or herbrew words used for the different verses....and I can look up the definition of the words used in the greek and hebrew. It's very interesting.

So kill, in exodus 20:13 is ratsach. The strong's concordance says, "a prim. root; prop. to dash in pieces, ie kill (a human being), espec. to murder:--put to death, kill, (man-) slay (-er), murder (-er)"

So it can be used to say kill, murder, manslaughter....or dash in pieces.

Let's take the word kill in the English language. It can be used so many ways. "Man, my mom's gonna KILL me when she sees this dent!" "She just jumped in front of the train....I killed her!" "He killed her by strangulation." "The sniper killed the enemy." These all say kill....they mean different things. If you take the rest of the Law in the Bible, God tells what the punishment is for manslaughter. God leads the Israelites into battle, to kill the enemy. But the punishment for murder is different, it is death. (Exodus 21:12-14) Scripture helps to explain Scripture. https://www.bibletoo...anslaughter.htm
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#31 User is offline   MontyPython 

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Posted 08 April 2019 - 09:28 PM

View PostLollyMpl, on 08 April 2019 - 07:17 PM, said:

So....to kill. The difference of words and translations is a huge deal....some claim their translation is the only true one. I don't....because I prefer to read things NOT in old, english ways. But when I get tripped up on a word and what it means, I read it in several translations, and then I pull out the old Strong's concordance....which leads me to the greek or herbrew words used for the different verses....and I can look up the definition of the words used in the greek and hebrew. It's very interesting.

So kill, in exodus 20:13 is ratsach. The strong's concordance says, "a prim. root; prop. to dash in pieces, ie kill (a human being), espec. to murder:--put to death, kill, (man-) slay (-er), murder (-er)"

So it can be used to say kill, murder, manslaughter....or dash in pieces.

Let's take the word kill in the English language. It can be used so many ways. "Man, my mom's gonna KILL me when she sees this dent!" "She just jumped in front of the train....I killed her!" "He killed her by strangulation." "The sniper killed the enemy." These all say kill....they mean different things. If you take the rest of the Law in the Bible, God tells what the punishment is for manslaughter. God leads the Israelites into battle, to kill the enemy. But the punishment for murder is different, it is death. (Exodus 21:12-14) Scripture helps to explain Scripture. https://www.bibletoo...anslaughter.htm


Thank you Lolly! You have made my point for me.

:2up:
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#32 User is offline   LollyMpl 

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Posted 08 April 2019 - 10:08 PM

I don't find it an inaccuracy to use a word that can be used in different ways. And the rest of the law in exodus backs up the "don't murder" meaning.

That's allright. We'll get to heaven one day and ask God, and He'll explain it to us! ;)
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#33 User is offline   MontyPython 

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Posted 08 April 2019 - 10:16 PM

View PostLollyMpl, on 08 April 2019 - 10:08 PM, said:

I don't find it an inaccuracy to use a word that can be used in different ways.


In any other circumstance that's a valid point. But in the case of "Thou Shalt NOT..." it just doesn't work if it's vague; if it can mean different things. It must be extremely specific.


View PostLollyMpl, on 08 April 2019 - 10:08 PM, said:

And the rest of the law in exodus backs up the "don't murder" meaning.


So in other words, it contradicts the vagueness in the Commandment (as translated.)


View PostLollyMpl, on 08 April 2019 - 10:08 PM, said:

That's allright. We'll get to heaven one day and ask God, and He'll explain it to us! ;)


Now THAT'S a very good point.

And I can't deny I fully expect to be greeted with something like "Hey man, thanks for trying."

B)
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#34 User is offline   Joe the Pagan 

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Posted 09 April 2019 - 01:22 AM

View PostMontyPython, on 08 April 2019 - 10:16 PM, said:

In any other circumstance that's a valid point. But in the case of "Thou Shalt NOT..." it just doesn't work if it's vague; if it can mean different things. It must be extremely specific.




So in other words, it contradicts the vagueness in the Commandment (as translated.)




Now THAT'S a very good point.

And I can't deny I fully expect to be greeted with something like "Hey man, thanks for trying."

B)


If killing is wrong what about Jacob's reaction to his sons kill the recently circumcised Shechemites.

Monty your belief reminds me of a Christian friend of mine. He believes there are two deities in the Bible. The first is God, The Father. The Father created the entire universe, and appears in the old Testament up to the destruction of the Tower of Babel. The rest of the Old Testament is about Yahweh. Yahweh is the tribal god of the Jewish people. He is a powerful deity, but is nowhere near as powerful as the creator of the universe. The Bible returns to The Father in the New Testament
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#35 User is offline   rogerg 

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Posted 09 April 2019 - 02:19 AM

View PostMontyPython, on 08 April 2019 - 04:09 PM, said:

How do any of those things contradict anything I've said?

:scratch:

Edited to add: Surely you understand the concept of circular logic. Well what you've posted here is the quintessential example of circular logic. Suppose I said "I'm always right, and the proof that I'm always right is that I said so, and since I'm always right it must be true!"

Well that's exactly what you're saying above: "The Bible is always accurate, and the proof thereof is that it says so, and since it's always accurate it must be true."

Sorry, that just doesn't work.

B)


Well yes, but I'm not sure I completely understand your point? The Bible has proven itself correct time after time after time and my reason for posting in this thread is to speak about the Bible so what else would I be using?? To not would be to concede the Bible isn't what it claims for itself. But the reciprocal of your argument is the question then of what do you claim to be the ultimate spiritual authority if not the Bible? Consider this: the Bible is the only book which sets forth a salvation based solely upon a gift from God with no actions or works required, no not even permitted whatsoever, on the part of the recipient. No other supposed spiritual authority (Koran, etc.) sets forth that opportunity. Were it not true, we would all be in a lot of trouble indeed not having any hope. From a logically perspective, I don't think it could be possible for there to be two correct contradictory spiritual authorities existing at the same time -- one of thoes would have to be a fraud! You've said you're a Christian and therefore that you believe in Christ, and as I said I believe your statement. But it does beg the question then as to why do you believe what you say you believe? What is the ultimate spiritual authority from which you receive spiritual enlightenment do you place your trust in for you eternal well being and eternal life since it doesn't appear to be the Bible. Is it just in your own spiritual intuition alone?
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#36 User is offline   rogerg 

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Posted 09 April 2019 - 03:18 AM

View PostLollyMpl, on 08 April 2019 - 07:17 PM, said:

So....to kill. The difference of words and translations is a huge deal....some claim their translation is the only true one. I don't....because I prefer to read things NOT in old, english ways. But when I get tripped up on a word and what it means, I read it in several translations, and then I pull out the old Strong's concordance....which leads me to the greek or herbrew words used for the different verses....and I can look up the definition of the words used in the greek and hebrew. It's very interesting.

So kill, in exodus 20:13 is ratsach. The strong's concordance says, "a prim. root; prop. to dash in pieces, ie kill (a human being), espec. to murder:--put to death, kill, (man-) slay (-er), murder (-er)"

So it can be used to say kill, murder, manslaughter....or dash in pieces.

Let's take the word kill in the English language. It can be used so many ways. "Man, my mom's gonna KILL me when she sees this dent!" "She just jumped in front of the train....I killed her!" "He killed her by strangulation." "The sniper killed the enemy." These all say kill....they mean different things. If you take the rest of the Law in the Bible, God tells what the punishment is for manslaughter. God leads the Israelites into battle, to kill the enemy. But the punishment for murder is different, it is death. (Exodus 21:12-14) Scripture helps to explain Scripture. https://www.bibletoo...anslaughter.htm


But consider that the Bible is to be used as its own dictionary and glossary of terms (among other things) - it is completely self-contained and needs nothing outside of itself
to be complete when used correctly according to its own rules.

Again it appears to me we're all straying far off point but okay, let's pursue it a little:

Here's a few quick verses to illustrate that from a biblical perspective there are two deaths - there are other verses which also describe this:

[Rev 21:8 KJV] 8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

21:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.


At the risk of stating the obvious, by second death, there must of necessity, also have been a first death. Now as you can see, at least as described by the Bible, compared to the second death the first death is almost (well I hate to say it) but it is trivial. It is trivial because the second one is eternal, inescapable and much more terrible in its nature for those unsaved. Therefore (at least as far as the Bible is concerned) it is far and away the worse of the two. With that in mind, to my understanding, to kill and to murder are NOT the same when view biblically. Not to sound hard-hearted, but it is of a truth that everyone dies sooner or later for some reason or other: illness, old age, being killed - no one escapes alive. Is that then to say that God will eventually murder everyone? Nope --life is His to give and take away at a time and in a way of His choosing -- it was His gift to us to begin with, plus He is not bound to the law as we are,and, thus does not signal a contradiction. Now consider that the Bible consists of two distinct and concurrent paths thru it: the physical historical, and the spiritual eternal - with both existing at the same time within the same verses. It is the spiritual eternal path which should be found, followed and understood because it is the one which leads to eternal life even though both are present -- the physical historical was used by God to document and illustrate spiritual principles as allegory, parables and symbols. Killing a person on earth outside of the law will invoke penalties according to earthly law; killing or murdering someone's spiritually will result in individual(s) second death if the murderer remains unsaved.

Kind of tired so I hope this post makes sense.

This post has been edited by rogerg: 09 April 2019 - 07:19 AM

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#37 User is offline   MontyPython 

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Posted 09 April 2019 - 09:55 AM

View PostJoe the Pagan, on 09 April 2019 - 01:22 AM, said:

If killing is wrong what about Jacob's reaction to his sons kill the recently circumcised Shechemites.


I'm not familiar with that story.

:shrug:

And keep in mind I've never said killing is wrong. I've pointed out the difference between murder, which means unjustified killing and is therefore wrong, and the much more general term killing, which is only sometimes wrong.

Here's a good way to sum it up: All murder is killing, but not all killing is murder. Some killing is justified. If somebody is attempting to kill you or your family, you are absolutely justified in killing him first. If a woman is being raped, she is absolutely justified in killing her rapist. And so forth. So killing isn't always wrong. But murder is.

And that's why "Thou Shalt Not Kill" is either a direct contradiction to other portions of the Bible, or else it's a translation mistake and is supposed to say "Thou Shalt Not Murder", a whole different concept. But in either case it proves the Bible isn't 100% literally perfect.


View PostJoe the Pagan, on 09 April 2019 - 01:22 AM, said:

Monty your belief reminds me of a Christian friend of mine. He believes there are two deities in the Bible. The first is God, The Father. The Father created the entire universe, and appears in the old Testament up to the destruction of the Tower of Babel. The rest of the Old Testament is about Yahweh. Yahweh is the tribal god of the Jewish people. He is a powerful deity, but is nowhere near as powerful as the creator of the universe. The Bible returns to The Father in the New Testament


That sounds like a strange belief; One I've never encountered before. Stranger still is that it apparently strikes you as similar to mine. I assure you, that's not what I believe. There is only one God, the God of the Bible.


-------------------------------
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View Postrogerg, on 09 April 2019 - 02:19 AM, said:

Well yes, but I'm not sure I completely understand your point? The Bible has proven itself correct time after time after time … and my reason for posting in this thread is to speak about the Bible so what else would I be using?? To not would be to concede the Bible isn't what it claims for itself. But the reciprocal of your argument is the question then of what do you claim to be the ultimate spiritual authority if not the Bible? Consider this: the Bible is the only book which sets forth a salvation based solely upon a gift from God with no actions or works required, no not even permitted whatsoever, on the part of the recipient. No other supposed spiritual authority (Koran, etc.) sets forth that opportunity. Were it not true, we would all be in a lot of trouble indeed not having any hope. From a logically perspective, I don't think it could be possible for there to be two correct contradictory spiritual authorities existing at the same time -- one of thoes would have to be a fraud! You've said you're a Christian and therefore that you believe in Christ, and as I said I believe your statement. But it does beg the question then as to why do you believe what you say you believe? What is the ultimate spiritual authority from which you receive spiritual enlightenment do you place your trust in for you eternal well being and eternal life since it doesn't appear to be the Bible. Is it just in your own spiritual intuition alone?


Yes, the Bible has indeed been proven correct many times in many cases. Locations of cities, times and locations of crucial battles, migrations, the exodus from Egypt, and countless other examples. I have NEVER intended to indicate the Bible is generally inaccurate. Only that there are occasions where it was clearly mistranslated somewhere along the line by us imperfect humans.

Therefore I agree the Bible is the ultimate spiritual authority. It's just not always an accurate historical reference work. Especially not in the earliest portions of Genesis (i.e. the creation account.)

And here's a point that hasn't been brought up yet: Which Bible are we talking about? Remember that the Catholic Bible contains books not found in the Protestant Bible. And the Ethiopian Bible contains books found in neither. And how about the Greek Orthodox Bible? And how about the Apocrypha? ALL are of divine inspiration, yet they have distinct variances. It's important in any discussion about "the" Bible to establish which Bible.

B)

This post has been edited by MontyPython: 09 April 2019 - 10:00 AM

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#38 User is offline   rogerg 

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Posted 09 April 2019 - 10:40 AM

View PostMontyPython, on 09 April 2019 - 09:55 AM, said:

I'm not familiar with that story.

:shrug:

And keep in mind I've never said killing is wrong. I've pointed out the difference between murder, which means unjustified killing and is therefore wrong, and the much more general term killing, which is only sometimes wrong.

Here's a good way to sum it up: All murder is killing, but not all killing is murder. Some killing is justified. If somebody is attempting to kill you or your family, you are absolutely justified in killing him first. If a woman is being raped, she is absolutely justified in killing her rapist. And so forth. So killing isn't always wrong. But murder is.

And that's why "Thou Shalt Not Kill" is either a direct contradiction to other portions of the Bible, or else it's a translation mistake and is supposed to say "Thou Shalt Not Murder", a whole different concept. But in either case it proves the Bible isn't 100% literally perfect.




That sounds like a strange belief; One I've never encountered before. Stranger still is that it apparently strikes you as similar to mine. I assure you, that's not what I believe. There is only one God, the God of the Bible.


-------------------------------
-------------------------------
-------------------------------




Yes, the Bible has indeed been proven correct many times in many cases. Locations of cities, times and locations of crucial battles, migrations, the exodus from Egypt, and countless other examples. I have NEVER intended to indicate the Bible is generally inaccurate. Only that there are occasions where it was clearly mistranslated somewhere along the line by us imperfect humans.

Therefore I agree the Bible is the ultimate spiritual authority. It's just not always an accurate historical reference work. Especially not in the earliest portions of Genesis (i.e. the creation account.)

And here's a point that hasn't been brought up yet: Which Bible are we talking about? Remember that the Catholic Bible contains books not found in the Protestant Bible. And the Ethiopian Bible contains books found in neither. And how about the Greek Orthodox Bible? And how about the Apocrypha? ALL are of divine inspiration, yet they have distinct variances. It's important in any discussion about "the" Bible to establish which Bible.

B)


"And here's a point that hasn't been brought up yet: Which Bible are we talking about? Remember that the Catholic Bible contains books not found in the Protestant Bible. And the Ethiopian Bible contains books found in neither. And how about the Greek Orthodox Bible? And how about the Apocrypha? ALL are of divine inspiration, yet they have distinct variances. It's important in any discussion about "the" Bible to establish which Bible."

Well I haven't reviewed all of them but I think that I might understand the fundamental guidelines that should employed to weed out pretenders:

[Psa 40:6-7 KJV] 6 Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required.
7 Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book [it is] written of me,

[Heb 10:9-10 KJV] 9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once [for all].

So, based upon the verses of the Book of Psalms, we can see that the entire Bible was, in one way or another, based completely upon Jesus Christ as being its centerpiece, with His ministry of accomplishing the Father's will to save those He came to save.
In the Book of Hebrews (and Romans), we can see that the Law of law was destroyed by Jesus to establish redemption, peace, mercy, reconciliation and forgiveness from/with/by the Father for salvation.

Any version of a Bible which does not have those as the foundation and also as the peaks of message, should be considered a pretender -- or worse.

Said another way, Jesus ALONE is the one Savior. No true version would permit or communicate anything less -- everything revolves around Christ alone.









"Therefore I agree the Bible is the ultimate spiritual authority. It's just not always an accurate historical reference work. Especially not in the earliest portions of Genesis (i.e. the creation account.)"


Might be a lack of understanding on your part ?

This post has been edited by rogerg: 09 April 2019 - 11:07 AM

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#39 User is offline   Joe the Pagan 

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Posted 09 April 2019 - 11:17 AM

View PostMontyPython, on 09 April 2019 - 09:55 AM, said:


That sounds like a strange belief; One I've never encountered before. Stranger still is that it apparently strikes you as similar to mine. I assure you, that's not what I believe. There is only one God, the God of the Bible.



I can't say exactly what reminded me of my friend's belief, but it did remind me of it.
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#40 User is offline   MontyPython 

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Posted 09 April 2019 - 11:46 AM

View Postrogerg, on 09 April 2019 - 10:40 AM, said:

"And here's a point that hasn't been brought up yet: Which Bible are we talking about? Remember that the Catholic Bible contains books not found in the Protestant Bible. And the Ethiopian Bible contains books found in neither. And how about the Greek Orthodox Bible? And how about the Apocrypha? ALL are of divine inspiration, yet they have distinct variances. It's important in any discussion about "the" Bible to establish which Bible."

Well I haven't reviewed all of them but I think that I might understand the fundamental guidelines that should employed to weed out pretenders:

[Psa 40:6-7 KJV] 6 Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required.
7 Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book [it is] written of me,

[Heb 10:9-10 KJV] 9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once [for all].

So, based upon the verses of the Book of Psalms, we can see that the entire Bible was, in one way or another, based completely upon Jesus Christ as being its centerpiece, with His ministry of accomplishing the Father's will to save those He came to save.
In the Book of Hebrews (and Romans), we can see that the Law of law was destroyed by Jesus to establish redemption, peace, mercy, reconciliation and forgiveness from/with/by the Father for salvation.

Any version of a Bible which does not have those as the foundation and also as the peaks of message, should be considered a pretender -- or worse.

Said another way, Jesus ALONE is the one Savior. No true version would permit or communicate anything less -- everything revolves around Christ alone.


ALL of those different versions of The Bible meet every one of the requirements you set forth.


View Postrogerg, on 09 April 2019 - 10:40 AM, said:

"Therefore I agree the Bible is the ultimate spiritual authority. It's just not always an accurate historical reference work. Especially not in the earliest portions of Genesis (i.e. the creation account.)"


Might be a lack of understanding on your part ?


Sure, and maybe water isn't really wet; maybe that's just a lack of understanding on my part too.

:shrug:

Look Roger, I tried to bow out of this thread several posts ago, and you said "Sorry Monty - can't let you leave on that one". I'm ready again to bow out, because I'm confident my point has not only been made, but has been proven beyond reasonable dispute. I assure you I can keep going because there are plenty of other examples I haven't even mentioned yet. But it isn't my desire to wreck the thread, or to continue what is basically off-topic (since your original point concerned Adam & Eve & the tree of knowledge.)

Are you willing to let me go this time? I'd like to believe this was just an honest intellectual discussion and there are no hard feelings. I certainly harbor none.

:coolshades:
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