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Alabama Senate passes near-total abortion ban Rate Topic: -----

#21 User is offline   Bad_Apple 

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Posted 15 May 2019 - 01:44 PM

What is the percentage of rape or incest victims needing an abortion out of total abortions every year anybody know?

This post has been edited by Bad_Apple: 15 May 2019 - 01:44 PM

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#22 User is offline   Wag-a-Muffin (D) 

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Posted 15 May 2019 - 02:12 PM



North Carolina, not Alabama, but this is an interesting video.

This post has been edited by Wag-a-Muffin (D): 16 May 2019 - 01:44 PM

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#23 User is offline   GhostOfAndrewJackson 

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Posted 15 May 2019 - 02:43 PM

View PostLadybird, on 15 May 2019 - 09:35 AM, said:

Ohio too..

Why should a rape victim not have any sovereignty over her own body?


Because the life inside her is not hers to take. The child is innocent.

The mother can always resolve the issue and exert sovereignty over her own body by taking her own life; that option is always available to her, if sovereignty is the true issue.

I should add(and unrelated to your comment), I believe abortion is murder, but in general I have no problem with murder, I am just not a fan of murdering innocent life without acknowledging it.

I would find it acceptable if a woman signs a form acknowledging that she knows she is terminating the life of an innocent child and is in fact murdering her own baby willingly and knowingly, why she made the decision, and the record was made public. That way she knows exactly what she is and so does anyone who cares to check on the matter.

This post has been edited by GhostOfAndrewJackson: 15 May 2019 - 02:52 PM

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#24 User is offline   Severian 

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Posted 15 May 2019 - 02:45 PM

No matter what your opinions on abortion, whether it should be legal or not, we are now seeing the result of the fact that Roe V Wade was a crap decision, decided on ideology NOT Constitutional law. This was bound to eventually blow up in everyone's faces and turn into a gigantic crap show based on the way it was passed and shoved down the throats of people who disagreed. It never, ever should have been a Federal issue, based on invented "rights" that are not enumerated in the Constitution, but should have been left to the states. Either that or passed by a Constitutional amendment.

And this from me, a person who is not Pro-Life/Anti-Abortion, but thinks it should be legal but limited (20 weeks or so as in many countries). Unfortunately here it's a hard one way or the other, hard over make it illegal, vs. hard over making it a sacrament where even live born babies can be left to die, with all the trappings of Mengele in selling body parts. Sadly no middle ground seems to be possible, so this is all going to get uglier before it gets better.
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#25 User is offline   Dean Adam Smithee 

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Posted 15 May 2019 - 02:56 PM

View PostBad_Apple, on 15 May 2019 - 01:44 PM, said:

What is the percentage of rape or incest victims needing an abortion out of total abortions every year anybody know?


Best number I've seen that "no more than one or two pregnancies resultant from every 1,000 forcible rapes" (source: Rape Pregnancies are Rare by Dr. John C. Willke with statistics to back it up) and, of that 0.1%-0.2%, 75-85% choose NOT to get an abortion. Source: Mahkorn, "Pregnancy and Sexual Assault," The Psychological Aspects of Abortion, eds. Mall & Watts, (Washington, D.C., University Publications of America, 1979) pp. 55-69 as cited in Rape, Incest and Abortion: Searching Beyond the Myths by David C. Reardon, Ph.D.

Feminists, NARAL, etc., like to cite that ~5% of Rapes end in pregnancy, a number they get to by defining 'rape' so broadly as to be meaningless; they basically "torture the numbers until they confess".
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#26 User is offline   MontyPython 

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Posted 15 May 2019 - 03:05 PM

View PostBad_Apple, on 15 May 2019 - 01:44 PM, said:

What is the percentage of rape or incest victims needing an abortion out of total abortions every year anybody know?


I'm sure it's a tiny fraction. I'd guess less than one percent.

Nonetheless, to that tiny fraction of women impregnated through rape or incest, it's 100% significant. There simply isn't any excuse or defense for any woman or girl who has ALREADY suffered a horrific personal trauma through no fault of her own to be forced by law to carry the unwanted result of that indefensible violation to term.

B)
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#27 User is offline   Ladybird 

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Posted 15 May 2019 - 03:18 PM

View PostDean Adam Smithee, on 15 May 2019 - 02:56 PM, said:

Best number I've seen that "no more than one or two pregnancies resultant from every 1,000 forcible rapes" (source: Rape Pregnancies are Rare by Dr. John C. Willke with statistics to back it up) and, of that 0.1%-0.2%, 75-85% choose NOT to get an abortion. Source: Mahkorn, "Pregnancy and Sexual Assault," The Psychological Aspects of Abortion, eds. Mall & Watts, (Washington, D.C., University Publications of America, 1979) pp. 55-69 as cited in Rape, Incest and Abortion: Searching Beyond the Myths by David C. Reardon, Ph.D.

Feminists, NARAL, etc., like to cite that ~5% of Rapes end in pregnancy, a number they get to by defining 'rape' so broadly as to be meaningless; they basically "torture the numbers until they confess".


Some donít consider a grown man having sex with a child rape or a woman who has had a previous sexual relationship with the man who raped her as Ďreal rapeí, but that doesnít make it not rape.
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#28 User is offline   LollyMpl 

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Posted 15 May 2019 - 03:19 PM

I've read from mothers who carried their rapist's child....and found healing within the life they carried, the baby they found themselves loving. I have friends who adopted a rapist's child....and he's amazing! I 100% feel it is a tough zone....and yet...I still cannot condone murdering those babies. Because abortion IS murder. Also....a woman who has lived with rape....now has to open her legs again, have instruments forced inside of her....again....only this time she has murder upon her soul to add to the rape that was done against her. I don't see how allowing abortion helps her soul any. God sees sin, she knows she is sinning, the enemy knows it as sin, too. How does that make her mental health ANY BETTER? It doesn't.
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#29 User is online   SARGE 

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Posted 15 May 2019 - 03:19 PM

View PostMontyPython, on 15 May 2019 - 03:05 PM, said:

I'm sure it's a tiny fraction. I'd guess less than one percent.

Nonetheless, to that tiny fraction of women impregnated through rape or incest, it's 100% significant. There simply isn't any excuse or defense for any woman or girl who has ALREADY suffered a horrific personal trauma through no fault of her own to be forced by law to carry the unwanted result of that indefensible violation to term.

B)


I understand your position, however, the "unwanted result" is still a human being.
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#30 User is online   zurg 

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Posted 15 May 2019 - 03:33 PM

Itís interesting that, excepting the recently passed abortion bills in a couple of states, the US has way more ďpermissiveĒ abortion rules than the more socially liberal European countries, where abortion in general is not permitted after first trimester (13 weeks). Just for starters, any reasonable adult SHOULD agree that this is enough time to figure out that youíre pregnant and that you donít want to keep it.

Iíve said this before but I approach this from a soul-based argument. I think abortion should not be allowed after a soul has committed to a fetus. Now the problem with this statement obviously is that nobody knows when that happens. Iíve thus decided to use an engineering approach to estimate a reasonable upper limit for abortion:
1) itís way, way before physical viability (23-24 weeks)
2) itís not before basic neurological development begins (4 weeks)
Being an engineer, I want to play it safe favoring the fetus/soul, so I would draw the line at about 6-7 weeks. I think a month plus should be acceptable for decision making about the fate of the fetus.
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#31 User is online   Rock N' Roll Right Winger 

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Posted 15 May 2019 - 03:36 PM

View PostLadybird, on 15 May 2019 - 12:52 PM, said:

No, itís her body and mental health that is directly impacted by a pregnancy.

:bs:

View PostJerryL, on 15 May 2019 - 01:20 PM, said:

The life she is going to eliminate in order to protect her mental health is NOT her body. Rape doesnít change that the unique human life created is NOT her body.

I agree that she should be able to choose but I am honest enough to admit that what she is choosing is the termination of a human life that is NOT her body.

:exactly:
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#32 User is online   Rock N' Roll Right Winger 

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Posted 15 May 2019 - 03:40 PM

No need to worry about any of this because it will all be overturned very soon by a liberal/proggy activist judge anyhow.

So for all you progtards out there you can continue on having reckless unprotected sex and murdering the inconvenient results of that behavior because it affects you mentally. :crybaby2:
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#33 User is offline   Ladybird 

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Posted 15 May 2019 - 03:47 PM

When Pat Robertson says itís too extreme.
https://thehill.com/...xtreme-abortion

It might be too extreme.
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#34 User is online   SARGE 

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Posted 15 May 2019 - 04:02 PM

View PostLadybird, on 15 May 2019 - 03:47 PM, said:

When Pat Robertson says itís too extreme.
https://thehill.com/...xtreme-abortion

It might be too extreme.


Pat Robertson? The 700 Club guy?

He's never articulated nor influenced my views in the past.

Who cares?
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#35 User is online   Moderator T 

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Posted 15 May 2019 - 04:20 PM

View PostLadybird, on 15 May 2019 - 09:35 AM, said:

Ohio too..

Why should a rape victim not have any sovereignty over her own body?

Different laws. The Ohio one would prevent the abortion once a heartbeat is detected, which is as early as six weeks. It would still allow for the morning after pill and early abortions.
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#36 User is online   Moderator T 

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Posted 15 May 2019 - 04:24 PM

View Postzurg, on 15 May 2019 - 03:33 PM, said:

Itís interesting that, excepting the recently passed abortion bills in a couple of states, the US has way more ďpermissiveĒ abortion rules than the more socially liberal European countries, where abortion in general is not permitted after first trimester (13 weeks). Just for starters, any reasonable adult SHOULD agree that this is enough time to figure out that youíre pregnant and that you donít want to keep it.

Iíve said this before but I approach this from a soul-based argument. I think abortion should not be allowed after a soul has committed to a fetus. Now the problem with this statement obviously is that nobody knows when that happens. Iíve thus decided to use an engineering approach to estimate a reasonable upper limit for abortion:
1) itís way, way before physical viability (23-24 weeks)
2) itís not before basic neurological development begins (4 weeks)
Being an engineer, I want to play it safe favoring the fetus/soul, so I would draw the line at about 6-7 weeks. I think a month plus should be acceptable for decision making about the fate of the fetus.

Its an issue where the polarization of American politics is definitely on display. One side wants to all but outlaw it, the other side wants to make North Korea look like the compassionate one on the issue.
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#37 User is online   Moderator T 

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Posted 15 May 2019 - 04:27 PM

As for this specific bill, I wish it had the usual exceptions for rape and incest because it'll almost definitely make it to the Supreme Court. That said as I've mentioned before I don't support those exceptions overall as I don't believe the circumstances of conception should be what decides whether the unborn child gets to have rights or not. Either they're a human being deserving of rights or they are not.
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#38 User is offline   Ladybird 

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Posted 15 May 2019 - 04:51 PM

View PostModerator T, on 15 May 2019 - 04:20 PM, said:

Different laws. The Ohio one would prevent the abortion once a heartbeat is detected, which is as early as six weeks. It would still allow for the morning after pill and early abortions.


And like I stated, that won't do a thing for women who for one reason or another doesn't tell anyone right away. Especially true for abuse victims that are underage.


This is what compassion is for pro-lifers?
https://www.usatoday...ion/3018459002/
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#39 User is offline   Dean Adam Smithee 

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Posted 15 May 2019 - 05:08 PM

View PostModerator T, on 15 May 2019 - 04:20 PM, said:

Different laws. The Ohio one would prevent the abortion once a heartbeat is detected, which is as early as six weeks. It would still allow for the morning after pill and early abortions.


Georgia passed a similar bill - signed by the Gov - a few weeks back. The so-called "Fetal Heartbeat Bill" though most discussion placed that as USUALLY ~10 weeks. Exceptions for Rape/Incest but stipulates that such claims MUST be supported by a police report.

At the VERY least, I'd like to have seen some tighter language such as "supported by a TIMELY police report". Otherwise, way too much room for abuse: "Some stranger that I can't identify raped me at a party two and a half months ago, I want an abortion."

Better yet, I'd have like to have seen the Georgia bill WITHOUT the Rape/Incest exception (which would still allow a 6-10 week window). Monty's earlier post that maybe a few days after the event isn't enough time for the rape victim to get their head together is persuasive. But I just can't go any MORE than 6-10 weeks; one has to draw a line somewhere.

And FWIW any anger over to my stance by anyone here should be directed not at ME but to the Lena Dunhams of the world and/or the other women who account for the fact that that up to 30% of all rape claims turn out to be not just unproven but demonstrably false.
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#40 User is offline   MontyPython 

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Posted 15 May 2019 - 05:38 PM

View PostSARGE, on 15 May 2019 - 03:19 PM, said:

I understand your position, however, the "unwanted result" is still a human being.


True indeed. And so is the person who has already been indefensibly violated and whose entire future life and well-being is in serious danger of being forever destroyed. Remember, unlike the developing baby, the rape victim already has friends, family, a home, loves, hobbies, interests, desires, goals, probably an education and a job, maybe even a rewarding professional career, and has very probably spent many years developing and establishing all those things.

The baby loses none of those things, because the baby has none of those things.

I still oppose all abortions that don't involve rape or incest or life of the mother, and I always will. But having witnessed firsthand the real-world horror visited upon rape victims, nothing can or will ever justify forcing that rape victim to carry a pregnancy resulting from rape to term.

Nothing.

B)
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