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#21 User is offline   Ladybird 

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Posted 22 June 2019 - 08:18 AM

View PostHowsithangin, on 22 June 2019 - 07:18 AM, said:

Armchair general. You have that luxury sitting in a lounge chair in AC, 12,00 miles away, and not getting shot at.

To wrestle with the pigs, one has to be prepared to get muddy.




A member of the bunch that burns people alive, drowns them in cages, tosses gays from buildings, rapes children, beheads people on live TV with saws...I don't care if it was conducting an art exhibit, kill it. It should be thankful it died quickly. It likely didn't offer its victims such a quick option. :redhot:


Stabbing an injured prisoner in US custody is ok? I guess that's considered heroic these days.

How about shooting Iraqi civilians?
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#22 User is online   Squirrel 

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Posted 22 June 2019 - 08:44 AM

View PostLadybird, on 22 June 2019 - 08:18 AM, said:

Stabbing an injured prisoner in US custody is ok? I guess that's considered heroic these days.

How about shooting Iraqi civilians?
and where does it say he has been proven guilty of any of those thing? Thatís why we have trials. But oh he has to already be guilty because of what someone said? I give a f about the people in these countries. Iíve served there seen how tolerant they are. I think we should not be there at all and arm both sides and let them sort thier own <censored> out. Hopefully resulting in them exterminating each other. If we are going to risk American lives there then carpet bomb the place first. But hey you are the expert on what happens on the ground in these countries, much as your an expert on the religion of peace. By the way how much time have you spent in these countries lb? Let alone in these countries in a war zone. Im sure they could use your humanitarian aide, have you thought of going over and explaining it to them? Or is that just too dangerous for you? But by all means use your expert judgement on the millitary men and women that go there. They are all guilty before the trial finishes to you I guess.

This post has been edited by Squirrel: 22 June 2019 - 08:48 AM

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#23 User is offline   Ladybird 

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Posted 22 June 2019 - 08:51 AM

View PostSquirrel, on 22 June 2019 - 08:44 AM, said:

and where does it say he has been proven guilty of any of those thing? Thatís why we have trials. But oh he has to already be guilty because of what someone said? I give a f about the people in these countries. Iíve served there seen how tolerant they are. I think we should not be there at all and arm both sides and let them sort thier own <censored> out. Hopefully resulting in them exterminating each other. If we are going to risk American lives there then carpet bomb the place first. But hey you are the expert on what happens on the ground in these countries, much as your an expert on the religion of peace. By the way how much time have you spent in these countries lb? Let alone in these countries in a war zone. Im sure they could use your humanitarian aide, have you thought of going over and explaining it to them? Or is that just too dangerous for you? But by all means use your expert judgement on the millitary men and women that go there. They are all guilty before the trial finishes to you I guess.


I didn't say he was guilty. Some in here and in the right wing circles seem to feel that even if he is guilty, that's just fine (read above), and that's it's wrong for him to be tried at all.
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#24 User is offline   zurg 

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Posted 22 June 2019 - 08:54 AM

View PostLadybird, on 22 June 2019 - 08:18 AM, said:

Stabbing an injured prisoner in US custody is ok? I guess that's considered heroic these days.

How about shooting Iraqi civilians?

If youíre so bothered by the killings of helpless people, why donít you constantly post about black people (including children) being shot by other black people in American cities (like Chicago)?
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#25 User is online   Squirrel 

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Posted 22 June 2019 - 08:59 AM

View Postzurg, on 22 June 2019 - 08:54 AM, said:

If youíre so bothered by the killings of helpless people, why donít you constantly post about black people (including children) being shot by other black people in American cities (like Chicago)?

She still also holds to Islam is a peaceful religion. So killing helpless people is not her strong stance
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#26 User is offline   Ladybird 

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Posted 22 June 2019 - 09:13 AM

View Postzurg, on 22 June 2019 - 08:54 AM, said:

If you’re so bothered by the killings of helpless people, why don’t you constantly post about black people (including children) being shot by other black people in American cities (like Chicago)?


Never mind the subject, what about those black people?

This is pretty freakin lame.

View PostSquirrel, on 22 June 2019 - 08:59 AM, said:

She still also holds to Islam is a peaceful religion. So killing helpless people is not her strong stance


I am not the subject of this thread.

This post has been edited by Ladybird: 22 June 2019 - 09:19 AM

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#27 User is offline   Taggart Transcontinental 

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Posted 22 June 2019 - 09:27 AM

View PostLadybird, on 21 June 2019 - 06:38 AM, said:

We're supposed to be better than them. But fine. Several other service members testified that they saw not only him stab this ISIS teen and then take a picture of the body, but shoot at civilians.


In a combat zone where people pick up and drop weapons in a second please define "civilian". In Iraq children were used to detonate IEDs, they were sent to retrieve weapons. They were running messages from fighter to fighter. That makes them combatants. I am curious if you were walking down the streets of Fallujah and some child began to throw a grenade at your people would you shoot that kid?

You are shooting at a "civilian" but that isn't really the case, the child has become a combatant. In the aftermath when that kid is a corpse there is no proof, just some clown with a camera claiming the kid wasn't doing a thing. You have to know what that Soldier knew at the moment that Soldier pulled the trigger in order to know what happened, not hindsight, not hearsay, not some fantastic claim by someone fed up and willing to make stories up in order to get out of a position they don't like.

Secondly, people dealing with death react to it differently. When faced with death some cry, some laugh some respond violently and attack and others fold like a paper bag. I was flying a mission in Iraq, and had just dropped off an Admiral at one of our bases, we were taking off and climbed over a T-wall on the way to get gas when 2 mortar rounds detonated around our aircraft, one landed under us on the T-wall about 30 feet from us, and the other missed by 300 meters. The aircraft shook, my Pilot in Command for this mission was a female Captain, she started laughing with an evil laugh, my response was to throw my hand out the door of our aircraft and toss the enemy the bird. My crew chiefs screamed, the outboard one actually saw the round slide through our rotor system and strike the wall.

All of us had our own response to that engagement. Until you been there and done that, you have no idea or understanding of what these people go through. PTSD? Damn right they all have it. I don't because I never had a problem doing what I had to do there. Nor did I get into any truly horrific crap, most of my "events" were short lived and high peak then nothing, on the other hand these people SEALs and the like are all high peak long term. When that happens you do things that are odd. Like taking pictures of your "kills" or posing with them. That's human nature and goes all the way back to when we took scalps of our fallen enemies, most of the time as they lay dying on the ground. It's barbaric, cruel and demeaning to the enemy. But that enemy also had a choice, they could have chose to not engage those troops in combat, they could have chosen instead to live within the rules they fought against. None of these people on either side are victims of anything, they were warriors and died. That happens, as does the reaction of those that were victors in the fight. If you can't accept that then stop sending them into combat, and be prepared to be a true victim, one who is oppressed and unwilling to do any thing about it.

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#28 User is offline   Taggart Transcontinental 

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Posted 22 June 2019 - 09:28 AM

View PostLadybird, on 21 June 2019 - 09:06 AM, said:

The stabbing didn't occur in a fire fight. This ISIS teen was already injured and was a prisoner of war.


The "stabbing" occurred because the guy was trying to put in an improvised airway, it's called a trachea tube and when the airway is compromised then that's what you do. That was the original story before someone came out and said he stabbed him.
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#29 User is offline   Ladybird 

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Posted 22 June 2019 - 09:30 AM

View PostTaggart Transcontinental, on 22 June 2019 - 09:27 AM, said:

In a combat zone where people pick up and drop weapons in a second please define "civilian". In Iraq children were used to detonate IEDs, they were sent to retrieve weapons. They were running messages from fighter to fighter. That makes them combatants. I am curious if you were walking down the streets of Fallujah and some child began to throw a grenade at your people would you shoot that kid?

You are shooting at a "civilian" but that isn't really the case, the child has become a combatant. In the aftermath when that kid is a corpse there is no proof, just some clown with a camera claiming the kid wasn't doing a thing. You have to know what that Soldier knew at the moment that Soldier pulled the trigger in order to know what happened, not hindsight, not hearsay, not some fantastic claim by someone fed up and willing to make stories up in order to get out of a position they don't like.

Secondly, people dealing with death react to it differently. When faced with death some cry, some laugh some respond violently and attack and others fold like a paper bag. I was flying a mission in Iraq, and had just dropped off an Admiral at one of our bases, we were taking off and climbed over a T-wall on the way to get gas when 2 mortar rounds detonated around our aircraft, one landed under us on the T-wall about 30 feet from us, and the other missed by 300 meters. The aircraft shook, my Pilot in Command for this mission was a female Captain, she started laughing with an evil laugh, my response was to throw my hand out the door of our aircraft and toss the enemy the bird. My crew chiefs screamed, the outboard one actually saw the round slide through our rotor system and strike the wall.

All of us had our own response to that engagement. Until you been there and done that, you have no idea or understanding of what these people go through. PTSD? Damn right they all have it. I don't because I never had a problem doing what I had to do there. Nor did I get into any truly horrific crap, most of my "events" were short lived and high peak then nothing, on the other hand these people SEALs and the like are all high peak long term. When that happens you do things that are odd. Like taking pictures of your "kills" or posing with them. That's human nature and goes all the way back to when we took scalps of our fallen enemies, most of the time as they lay dying on the ground. It's barbaric, cruel and demeaning to the enemy. But that enemy also had a choice, they could have chose to not engage those troops in combat, they could have chosen instead to live within the rules they fought against. None of these people on either side are victims of anything, they were warriors and died. That happens, as does the reaction of those that were victors in the fight. If you can't accept that then stop sending them into combat, and be prepared to be a true victim, one who is oppressed and unwilling to do any thing about it.


So there should be no rules of engagement? I'm not the one accusing this man, it's coming from his own team members.
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#30 User is offline   Taggart Transcontinental 

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Posted 22 June 2019 - 09:35 AM

View PostLadybird, on 22 June 2019 - 08:18 AM, said:

Stabbing an injured prisoner in US custody is ok? I guess that's considered heroic these days.

How about shooting Iraqi civilians?


So lets see, "you guys missed him but I got him", was stated over the radio. Do you know that it isn't customary to send "warning shots" at a person? Do you also know that it is not customary for people to not respond to warning shots if they are given? This just sounds like BS. If I were sitting there and saw my partners miss on a shot I would have also fired. ROE requires POSITIVE ID before firing at a target. Thus if your friends fired at a target and missed you would probably fire on that target and hit it.

Quote

The defense said the testimony was unreliable because no witness reported seeing Gallagher pull the trigger.


Secondly, this isn't cop audio, there are no body cams, it's just hearsay again. ISIS was in the area, maybe they shot him, is there forensic proof that this guy murdered him? Another point, if this man was on a murder streak wouldn't there be more cases coming out? Why just a knifing and shooting of this man? If he was a truly out of control murderer then the body count would be through the roof. This man was a walking terminator, with hundreds of kills. Wouldn't more of them be like this?


www.youtube.com/watch?v=S06nIz4scvI

The claims don't add up.



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#31 User is offline   Ladybird 

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Posted 22 June 2019 - 09:39 AM

View PostTaggart Transcontinental, on 22 June 2019 - 09:28 AM, said:

The "stabbing" occurred because the guy was trying to put in an improvised airway, it's called a trachea tube and when the airway is compromised then that's what you do. That was the original story before someone came out and said he stabbed him.


Gallagher was putting in a trachea tube and stabbed him by accident? I never heard that account before.
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#32 User is online   Squirrel 

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Posted 22 June 2019 - 09:40 AM

View PostLadybird, on 22 June 2019 - 09:30 AM, said:

So there should be no rules of engagement? I'm not the one accusing this man, it's coming from his own team members.

So now you know the rules of engagement for the millitary? Yes there are rules of engagement and even a small thing called the geneva convention. Most anyone that served there knows them still. But Iím sure you can tell us which ones he has broken and violated. Iíd be interested if you even know them or was that just a talking point? You seemed interested enough in this case to post the artical. So please share your knowledge and opinions.

This post has been edited by Squirrel: 22 June 2019 - 09:41 AM

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#33 User is offline   Ladybird 

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Posted 22 June 2019 - 09:43 AM

View PostTaggart Transcontinental, on 22 June 2019 - 09:35 AM, said:

So lets see, "you guys missed him but I got him", was stated over the radio. Do you know that it isn't customary to send "warning shots" at a person? Do you also know that it is not customary for people to not respond to warning shots if they are given? This just sounds like BS. If I were sitting there and saw my partners miss on a shot I would have also fired. ROE requires POSITIVE ID before firing at a target. Thus if your friends fired at a target and missed you would probably fire on that target and hit it.



Secondly, this isn't cop audio, there are no body cams, it's just hearsay again. ISIS was in the area, maybe they shot him, is there forensic proof that this guy murdered him? Another point, if this man was on a murder streak wouldn't there be more cases coming out? Why just a knifing and shooting of this man? If he was a truly out of control murderer then the body count would be through the roof. This man was a walking terminator, with hundreds of kills. Wouldn't more of them be like this?


www.youtube.com/watch?v=S06nIz4scvI

The claims don't add up.


That will be up to the jury. I don't want to see anyone punished unfairly, but I'm an American so it matters to me what is done in our name.

View PostSquirrel, on 22 June 2019 - 09:40 AM, said:

So now you know the rules of engagement for the millitary? Yes there are rules of engagement and even a small thing called the geneva convention. Most anyone that served there knows them still. But Iím sure you can tell us which ones he has broken and violated. Iíd be interested if you even know them or was that just a talking point? You seemed interested enough in this case to post the artical. So please share your knowledge and opinions.


I am not the subject of this thread.
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#34 User is offline   Taggart Transcontinental 

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Posted 22 June 2019 - 09:46 AM

View PostLadybird, on 22 June 2019 - 09:30 AM, said:

So there should be no rules of engagement? I'm not the one accusing this man, it's coming from his own team members.


Rules of engagement should not be known by the enemy, you should not need to get a person's name when they are shooting at you (being facetious here). When We went into Iraq initially the ROE was there but it was manageable, however as the thing turned into peace operations our forces faced more and more strenuous rules that often put our troops at risk. It was like having a lawyer in the foxhole with you so to speak. During the Obama era, you were more likely to be scrutinized by the chain of command for defending yourself than firing back in some cases.

We weren't allowed to test fire our weapons on mission in my third deployment, this means that if you had to use the gun in combat you had no idea if it would work. There were sometimes problems with them jamming during engagements, though the M240s were much more reliable than the M60d's.

Notice nowhere in my commentary up there did I say that being a combat troop should be a murderfest free for all. ROE is good when it's applied correctly, on the other hand when it's applied with lawyers that are nowhere near the fight, it is not. Those closest to the fight often times know what is happening and whether a shoot was good. Prosecuting an engagement from 8000 miles away isn't the right answer. This is nothing more than people engaging in a disagreement through the military court system. There are indications of coordination of stories. Whether this guy is guilty or not will never be proven at this point, the evidence has been tainted beyond belief. This is nothing at this point more than a hit job.

Funny for me, it's like the opposite of the Kerry debacle where you were defending that chucklehead against peers that stated he was nothing but a malingerer and self promoter, whereas here this guy is a war criminal.

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#35 User is online   Squirrel 

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Posted 22 June 2019 - 09:47 AM

View PostLadybird, on 22 June 2019 - 09:43 AM, said:

That will be up to the jury. I don't want to see anyone punished unfairly, but I'm an American so it matters to me what is done in our name.



I am not the subject of this thread.


So you post a thread and asking why is off limits? Asking you to back up your posts is off limits? Asking for your opinion on your statements is off limits? Because that makes you the subject or because you canít answer? New deflection strategy?
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Posted 22 June 2019 - 09:49 AM

View PostLadybird, on 22 June 2019 - 09:39 AM, said:

Gallagher was putting in a trachea tube and stabbed him by accident? I never heard that account before.


The initial account was that he was working on opening the airway.

https://nationalinte...er-lawyer-56307

Quote

"It shows that Chief Gallagher's immediate reaction was not to murder him but rather to help him," Parlatore told Task & Purpose on Monday. "After all that, why would he take out his knife and stab him?"


You never heard the information before because the prosecution suppressed the evidence.


Quote

"In this video, you see the Iraqi partner forces dragging this half-dead terrorist off the hood of the Humvee Ö Eddie coming over, taking charge, clearing everybody away; the ISIS guy is now down the ground; Eddie pulls out his medical kit and starts assessing his injuries to perform first aid," Parlatore said. "That's all that's in the video."


If you are going to murder someone why assess their wounds? I read somewhere else that I can't find he was working on a trachea.



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#37 User is offline   firecoco 

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Posted 22 June 2019 - 09:55 AM

There was a great line in the movie Full Metal Jacket....Joker is riding in the helicopter and the door gunner is shooting at water buffalo and then the door gunner sees a woman and child running and he starts shooting at them

Joker says to the door gunner....How can you shoot women and children?

Door gunner to Joker...."I don't lead them as much"
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#38 User is offline   Ladybird 

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Posted 22 June 2019 - 09:58 AM

View PostTaggart Transcontinental, on 22 June 2019 - 09:49 AM, said:

The initial account was that he was working on opening the airway.

https://nationalinte...er-lawyer-56307


You never heard the information before because the prosecution suppressed the evidence.




If you are going to murder someone why assess their wounds? I read somewhere else that I can't find he was working on a trachea.


That should have been presented, if true. At least it's grounds for an appeal if this trial goes to the prosecution.
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#39 User is offline   zurg 

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Posted 22 June 2019 - 10:03 AM

View PostLadybird, on 22 June 2019 - 09:13 AM, said:

Never mind the subject, what about those black people?

This is pretty freakin lame.

Youíre missing the point: youíve already decided that this soldier is guilty. Letís hear the evidence. Also, you seem unmoved by context. Does it matter or does it not matter what was going on? I havenít heard what the young man who died was up to.

Do you not think that war is different than regular life? I only protest the fact that youíre very quick to throw an American soldier under the bus but comparatively donít have the same attitude towards inner city killers.

Is that because itís just easier for you to assume our soldiers are bad people?
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#40 User is offline   Severian 

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Posted 22 June 2019 - 10:17 AM

View PostTaggart Transcontinental, on 22 June 2019 - 09:27 AM, said:

In a combat zone where people pick up and drop weapons in a second please define "civilian". In Iraq children were used to detonate IEDs, they were sent to retrieve weapons. They were running messages from fighter to fighter. That makes them combatants. I am curious if you were walking down the streets of Fallujah and some child began to throw a grenade at your people would you shoot that kid?

You are shooting at a "civilian" but that isn't really the case, the child has become a combatant. In the aftermath when that kid is a corpse there is no proof, just some clown with a camera claiming the kid wasn't doing a thing. You have to know what that Soldier knew at the moment that Soldier pulled the trigger in order to know what happened, not hindsight, not hearsay, not some fantastic claim by someone fed up and willing to make stories up in order to get out of a position they don't like.

Secondly, people dealing with death react to it differently. When faced with death some cry, some laugh some respond violently and attack and others fold like a paper bag. I was flying a mission in Iraq, and had just dropped off an Admiral at one of our bases, we were taking off and climbed over a T-wall on the way to get gas when 2 mortar rounds detonated around our aircraft, one landed under us on the T-wall about 30 feet from us, and the other missed by 300 meters. The aircraft shook, my Pilot in Command for this mission was a female Captain, she started laughing with an evil laugh, my response was to throw my hand out the door of our aircraft and toss the enemy the bird. My crew chiefs screamed, the outboard one actually saw the round slide through our rotor system and strike the wall.

All of us had our own response to that engagement. Until you been there and done that, you have no idea or understanding of what these people go through. PTSD? Damn right they all have it. I don't because I never had a problem doing what I had to do there. Nor did I get into any truly horrific crap, most of my "events" were short lived and high peak then nothing, on the other hand these people SEALs and the like are all high peak long term. When that happens you do things that are odd. Like taking pictures of your "kills" or posing with them. That's human nature and goes all the way back to when we took scalps of our fallen enemies, most of the time as they lay dying on the ground. It's barbaric, cruel and demeaning to the enemy. But that enemy also had a choice, they could have chose to not engage those troops in combat, they could have chosen instead to live within the rules they fought against. None of these people on either side are victims of anything, they were warriors and died. That happens, as does the reaction of those that were victors in the fight. If you can't accept that then stop sending them into combat, and be prepared to be a true victim, one who is oppressed and unwilling to do any thing about it.

Bravo! Spoken like a man who's been there and who has both experience and common sense.

View PostSquirrel, on 22 June 2019 - 09:40 AM, said:

So now you know the rules of engagement for the millitary? Yes there are rules of engagement and even a small thing called the geneva convention. Most anyone that served there knows them still. But Iím sure you can tell us which ones he has broken and violated. Iíd be interested if you even know them or was that just a talking point? You seemed interested enough in this case to post the artical. So please share your knowledge and opinions.

What people forget is that the Geneva Convention and other such agreements are a carrot/stick thing. They guarantee, supposedly, that if your country signs them and abides by them we will do the same. We don't have to treat you according to the Convention if you are not a signatory and don't treat our people in accordance with the convention, especially if you're a non-state actor, not part of a formal uniformed military. For example, the Hague Convention restricts the use of hollow point ammunition, but the Taliban and ISIS and such are not covered by it, being non-state actors, and as such we can use whatever ammo we want, and we never sighed the Hague anyway.

,
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