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#1 User is offline   Ladybird 

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Posted 13 May 2019 - 08:40 AM

Woman tried to stop hit-and-run driver before deadly shooting, police say


Posted: May 09, 2019 12:00 PM EDT
Updated: May 10, 2019 07:53 AM EDT

Excerpt:

CLAYTON COUNTY, Ga. -

A 21-year-old woman accused of shooting and killing a man Tuesday after she witnessed a hit-and-run crash has been arrested on a murder charge.

>> Read more trending news

Clayton County police said Hannah Payne followed a pickup truck she saw hit another vehicle near Clark Howell Highway and Ga. 85. The Fayetteville woman claimed the driver of the pickup, 62-year-old Kenneth Herring, tried to drive away from the accident.

Police said Payne tailed him about a mile to the intersection of Riverdale Road and Forest Parkway and positioned her Jeep in front of the pickup to prevent it from going any farther.

There was some kind of altercation. Payne, who is licensed to carry, had her gun with her when she left her Jeep and approached Herring, Maj. Anthony Thuman said during a news conference Wednesday.

ďAll we are at liberty to discuss at this point is during the struggle, the weapon was discharged,Ē he said. The investigation is still fluid, but Thuman said there was enough evidence to warrant the murder charge against Payne.

A witness flagged down an officer directing traffic near the entrance to I-285 at Riverdale Road to report the man was shot about 6:15 p.m. Tuesday. He later died at an area hospital.

<snip>

Link

Her lawyer and her friends are claiming she's a good Samaritan..
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#2 User is offline   Tikk 

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Posted 13 May 2019 - 08:53 AM

View PostLadybird, on 13 May 2019 - 08:40 AM, said:

Woman tried to stop hit-and-run driver before deadly shooting, police say


Posted: May 09, 2019 12:00 PM EDT
Updated: May 10, 2019 07:53 AM EDT

Excerpt:

CLAYTON COUNTY, Ga. -

A 21-year-old woman accused of shooting and killing a man Tuesday after she witnessed a hit-and-run crash has been arrested on a murder charge.

>> Read more trending news

Clayton County police said Hannah Payne followed a pickup truck she saw hit another vehicle near Clark Howell Highway and Ga. 85. The Fayetteville woman claimed the driver of the pickup, 62-year-old Kenneth Herring, tried to drive away from the accident.

Police said Payne tailed him about a mile to the intersection of Riverdale Road and Forest Parkway and positioned her Jeep in front of the pickup to prevent it from going any farther.

There was some kind of altercation. Payne, who is licensed to carry, had her gun with her when she left her Jeep and approached Herring, Maj. Anthony Thuman said during a news conference Wednesday.

ďAll we are at liberty to discuss at this point is during the struggle, the weapon was discharged,Ē he said. The investigation is still fluid, but Thuman said there was enough evidence to warrant the murder charge against Payne.

A witness flagged down an officer directing traffic near the entrance to I-285 at Riverdale Road to report the man was shot about 6:15 p.m. Tuesday. He later died at an area hospital.

<snip>

Link

Her lawyer and her friends are claiming she's a good Samaritan..


Do you have reason to believe that she is not?

Her attorney is claiming that she has ripped clothing and scratches to her body. Additionally, he is claiming that there should be evidence of the victim's fingerprints on the gun.

I don't know if any of that is true. That's why we have that whole right-to-trial thing.
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#3 User is offline   Ladybird 

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Posted 13 May 2019 - 09:19 AM

View PostTikk, on 13 May 2019 - 08:53 AM, said:

Do you have reason to believe that she is not?

Her attorney is claiming that she has ripped clothing and scratches to her body. Additionally, he is claiming that there should be evidence of the victim's fingerprints on the gun.

I don't know if any of that is true. That's why we have that whole right-to-trial thing.



Maybe he tried to grab her gun, because he didnít know what this woman wanted. Itís not like she was a police officer.

Too bad there was no trial for him.
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#4 User is offline   zurg 

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Posted 13 May 2019 - 09:25 AM

Based on the article - which is all the information I have - I absolutely cannot pass judgment one way or the other about the shooting.

I will say however that - PROVIDED the hit and run didnít cause injury - it wasnít smart to follow the car and block the other driver and confront him. Getting the license plate would have enough. Or, going to a greater extreme, picture of the vehicle and the driver. Confrontation? Very questionable.
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#5 User is offline   Tikk 

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Posted 13 May 2019 - 09:34 AM

View PostLadybird, on 13 May 2019 - 09:19 AM, said:

Maybe he tried to grab her gun, because he didnít know what this woman wanted. Itís not like she was a police officer.

Too bad there was no trial for him.


Maybe. Maybe not. We don't know.

If you witness a crime, you may hold the suspect under the grounds of a Citizen's Arrest. This is completely legal, although may up a whole slew of potential legal liability.

So citizens do have a right, under certain circumstances, to act as police officers. Whether those circumstances were met, will probably come out in the trial.
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#6 User is offline   Ladybird 

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Posted 13 May 2019 - 10:23 AM

View Postzurg, on 13 May 2019 - 09:25 AM, said:

Based on the article - which is all the information I have - I absolutely cannot pass judgment one way or the other about the shooting.

I will say however that - PROVIDED the hit and run didnít cause injury - it wasnít smart to follow the car and block the other driver and confront him. Getting the license plate would have enough. Or, going to a greater extreme, picture of the vehicle and the driver. Confrontation? Very questionable.


Definitely not smart. If Herring also had a legal weapon, he could have gotten out of his car and shot back.
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#7 User is offline   Howsithangin 

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Posted 13 May 2019 - 11:03 AM

View PostLadybird, on 13 May 2019 - 09:19 AM, said:

Maybe he tried to grab her gun, because he didnít know what this woman wanted. Itís not like she was a police officer.

Too bad there was no trial for him.


I'm with you on this one. She should have taken the plates & reported it to the police. Instead she played vigilante. There are times I support being a vigilante, but those involve when the person themselves is a victim and the legal system has failed. There was no legal system here. Lock her up.
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#8 User is offline   Taggart Transcontinental 

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Posted 13 May 2019 - 11:54 AM

View PostLadybird, on 13 May 2019 - 09:19 AM, said:

Maybe he tried to grab her gun, because he didn't know what this woman wanted. It's not like she was a police officer.

Too bad there was no trial for him.


Ok first of all, what's with the second and third order guesses. How about once again we wait for the trial before we make judgements. As the Judge said the Jury is there to determine the facts. This probably won't survive a murder charge the DA better allow lesser charges of things like manslaughter in otherwise his prosecution is out the door.

Secondly, I am sure there was a physical altercation here. He probably defended himself and got shot for it.

Lets say you screw up and have an accident and don't really realize you had an accident or maybe you drive off. No one is dead it was basically a fender bender. (There are no indications as to the level of damage in the hit and run). Now some "good Samaritan" races up, cuts you off, then come charging out of the car waving a firearm intent on stopping you. If it's me that person is dead. Simply because I carry, and I will not allow someone to draw down on me.

Something to think about. When police dispatch to an accident we only run code if there is life, limb or eyesight, or entrapment of the vehicle. If it's a light injury we don't run code to get there. So why would a good Samaritan cut someone off and start waving a gun? A better response is to call 911 if you must stay in contact with the car and give us the license plate number as well as your contact information. At the worst we will run the plate and meet them at their home and take a statement from you and the driver of the victim vehicle. No one dies, and the insurance is notified and of course the person driving away is charged.

This initial action was just stupid.

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#9 User is offline   Magic Rat 

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Posted 13 May 2019 - 12:08 PM

Is Hannah Payne a white Hispanic?
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#10 User is offline   usapatriot 

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Posted 13 May 2019 - 01:30 PM

View Postzurg, on 13 May 2019 - 09:25 AM, said:

Based on the article - which is all the information I have - I absolutely cannot pass judgment one way or the other about the shooting.

I will say however that - PROVIDED the hit and run didnít cause injury - it wasnít smart to follow the car and block the other driver and confront him. Getting the license plate would have enough. Or, going to a greater extreme, picture of the vehicle and the driver. Confrontation? Very questionable.

Yes, why not just take a picture of the license plate or better yet, call 911 while following the car and report what you saw and have the police intercept the car since she could provide the exact location of the car? Even if I did have a gun and felt secure enough to confront someone I thought just did a crime, I wouldn't confront them. If this guy really is such a POS that he knowingly would do a hit-and-run, then it wouldn't be a stretch to think he's done other illegal acts and maybe even has a gun. A fender bender isn't worth getting killed by some nut.
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#11 User is offline   Dean Adam Smithee 

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Posted 13 May 2019 - 01:36 PM

View PostTikk, on 13 May 2019 - 09:34 AM, said:

Maybe. Maybe not. We don't know.

If you witness a crime, you may hold the suspect under the grounds of a Citizen's Arrest. This is completely legal, although may up a whole slew of potential legal liability.

So citizens do have a right, under certain circumstances, to act as police officers. Whether those circumstances were met, will probably come out in the trial.


Several factors at play here in GA. First is the amount of damage/injury. Hit-and-run is a felony IF there was "serious" injury or Death. It's a misdemeanor if there's ONLY damage and the "Apparent" damage is $500 or more. Less than that, it's a traffic citation but not an arrest-able offense by either an LEO OR a 'citizen'.

Second, here in GA, because of the way the statute that allows it is worded, courts have ruled that it means that YES, "If you witness a crime, you may hold the suspect under the grounds of a Citizen's Arrest", BUT ONLY on-the-spot at the scene you witnessed. Once they've fled the scene you can only chase and THEN arrest them elsewhere if the offense was a felony.

This has major implications for not just hit and run but things like trespassing and shoplifting. Catch them red-handed and still your property? But once they're off your property, they're gone, best you can do is report it.
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#12 User is offline   Tikk 

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Posted 13 May 2019 - 02:09 PM

View PostDean Adam Smithee, on 13 May 2019 - 01:36 PM, said:

Several factors at play here in GA. First is the amount of damage/injury. Hit-and-run is a felony IF there was "serious" injury or Death. It's a misdemeanor if there's ONLY damage and the "Apparent" damage is $500 or more. Less than that, it's a traffic citation but not an arrest-able offense by either an LEO OR a 'citizen'.

Second, here in GA, because of the way the statute that allows it is worded, courts have ruled that it means that YES, "If you witness a crime, you may hold the suspect under the grounds of a Citizen's Arrest", BUT ONLY on-the-spot at the scene you witnessed. Once they've fled the scene you can only chase and THEN arrest them elsewhere if the offense was a felony.

This has major implications for not just hit and run but things like trespassing and shoplifting. Catch them red-handed and still your property? But once they're off your property, they're gone, best you can do is report it.



I don't know Georgia law.

And I don't know the circumstances or specifics surrounding the death.

So I cannot make any assumptions as to the guilt or innocence of any involved. And neither can anyone else.

The crimes for a traffic accident usually escalate if one the parties involved flee the scene.

Based upon what we do know. Yes, they should have gotten what information they could of the vehicle, the license plate, the individual driving the car, etc. But that may not be everything.


I also agree that it is a stretch to call it Murder. The District Attorney would have to show that she intended to kill the person when she chased the vehicle. Which would almost be impossible to prove. And, more importantly, harder for a fair minded jury to believe.
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#13 User is offline   Dean Adam Smithee 

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Posted 13 May 2019 - 05:32 PM

View PostTikk, on 13 May 2019 - 02:09 PM, said:

I don't know Georgia law.

And I don't know the circumstances or specifics surrounding the death.

So I cannot make any assumptions as to the guilt or innocence of any involved. And neither can anyone else.

The crimes for a traffic accident usually escalate if one the parties involved flee the scene.

Based upon what we do know. Yes, they should have gotten what information they could of the vehicle, the license plate, the individual driving the car, etc. But that may not be everything.


As it happens, I was involved (as the plaintiff/witness)in a VERY similar case back in January of this year here in GA State v Josephine Woolf Allen (It's how I happen to know this particular law.)

Drunk lady backed into me in the parking lot of a liquor store back in January (I was stopping in after work; she was obvioulsy going back for refills). Minor damage, just enough to scuff up my front bumper. She initially stopped. Any other situation. I'd likely have let it slide, BUT in chatting with her I could tell she was at least three sheets to the wind. Heck, she was probably a few sips away from 'blackout' territory. As soon as I said "lets wait for the cops to get here" she took off.

I followed her. Not "chased" but "followed". My intention was to call the cops while following her to report a DUI/DWI but, as luck would have it, I dropped my phone and it slid under my seat. I knew if I stopped to get the phone I'd lose her. Followed her to her house, she pulled into the garage and closed the door. I stayed outside the property, retrieved my phone, got a picture of the house but (by then dark and raining)("It was a dark and stormy night..." LOL) couldn't find a house number. Wanted to call the cops then and there, but after a number of turns in an East Cobb Co subdivision I wasn't exactly sure where I was. I made it home, then worked out where I HAD been when taking the picture of her house, than called the cops.

What sucks is, Cobb Co Sheriffs Deputies show up at my house, take a report. I wanted to NAIL her butt to the wall for DUI/DWI but they said "No", THEY would have had to catch her at the scene. Once she was home and "behind closed doors" they'd never be able to "prove" that she didn't get drunk after the fact. Yeah, I'll buy that.

View PostTikk, on 13 May 2019 - 02:09 PM, said:

I also agree that it is a stretch to call it Murder. The District Attorney would have to show that she intended to kill the person when she chased the vehicle. Which would almost be impossible to prove. And, more importantly, harder for a fair minded jury to believe.


I can ALMOST see what the DA is getting at. Obviously, her "story" pissed off the cops and/or the DA; NOBODY like being BS'd and SOMETHING must have set them off. Call it a "character flaw" but, until proven otherwise, I tend to "Lean Toward" the LEO side of things. Something must have been "hinky" about her story.

In GA, murder doesn't necessarily mean "intent". Could also be 'felony murder': someone dies in the midst of a felony. The felony being ADW (Assault with a deadly weapon). Or as GA puts it, "Aggravated assault".
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#14 User is offline   vectorsrule 

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Posted 14 May 2019 - 07:10 AM

This was murder. Third degree murder can be defined as homicide committed with the intention of causing bodily harm, but not necessarily death. It can be a killing that results from indifference or negligence or recklessness.

Anybody here hold a Carry Conceal licence? These are the situations that you are WARNED about to avoid.

1. She followed the car. This is an act of aggression when she could have just reported it.
2. She blocked his car. This is an act of aggression, if not kidnapping or holding another person against their will.
3. She left her car with... a gun and confronted him. Act of aggression.
4. She was close enough where he could touch her, maybe she pointed the gun at his face and he was trying to save his own life at that point. All CCW are told to stay at least 21 feet from a threat. Otherwise they might disarm you.
5. She killed him.

She instigated every aspect of this killing, she did EVERYTHING WRONG. This was murder. She wanted a violent confrontation and she got one. If I was on the jury I would vote guilty of murder.

As a warning to the rest of you, if you ever get out of a car in a confrontation you are begging to be convicted of something. Stay in your car and shoot someone through the window. If your state doesn't have a castle law you are obligated to speed away and call the police. Those are your only two options, unless you want to go to jail.

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#15 User is offline   Tikk 

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Posted 14 May 2019 - 08:21 AM

View Postvectorsrule, on 14 May 2019 - 07:10 AM, said:

This was murder. Third degree murder can be defined as homicide committed with the intention of causing bodily harm, but not necessarily death. It can be a killing that results from indifference or negligence or recklessness.

Anybody here hold a Carry Conceal licence? These are the situations that you are WARNED about to avoid.

1. She followed the car. This is an act of aggression when she could have just reported it.
2. She blocked his car. This is an act of aggression, if not kidnapping or holding another person against their will.
3. She left her car with... a gun and confronted him. Act of aggression.
4. She was close enough where he could touch her, maybe she pointed the gun at his face and he was trying to save his own life at that point. All CCW are told to stay at least 21 feet from a threat. Otherwise they might disarm you.
5. She killed him.

She instigated every aspect of this killing, she did EVERYTHING WRONG. This was murder. She wanted a violent confrontation and she got one. If I was on the jury I would vote guilty of murder.

As a warning to the rest of you, if you ever get out of a car in a confrontation you are begging to be convicted of something. Stay in your car and shoot someone through the window. If your state doesn't have a castle law you are obligated to speed away and call the police. Those are your only two options, unless you want to go to jail.



Excellent points.

I still wish to point out that not all the information is known.
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#16 User is offline   USNRETWIFE 

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Posted 14 May 2019 - 08:25 AM

View Postvectorsrule, on 14 May 2019 - 07:10 AM, said:

This was murder. Third degree murder can be defined as homicide committed with the intention of causing bodily harm, but not necessarily death. It can be a killing that results from indifference or negligence or recklessness.

Anybody here hold a Carry Conceal licence? These are the situations that you are WARNED about to avoid.

1. She followed the car. This is an act of aggression when she could have just reported it.
2. She blocked his car. This is an act of aggression, if not kidnapping or holding another person against their will.
3. She left her car with... a gun and confronted him. Act of aggression.
4. She was close enough where he could touch her, maybe she pointed the gun at his face and he was trying to save his own life at that point. All CCW are told to stay at least 21 feet from a threat. Otherwise they might disarm you.
5. She killed him.

She instigated every aspect of this killing, she did EVERYTHING WRONG. This was murder. She wanted a violent confrontation and she got one. If I was on the jury I would vote guilty of murder.

As a warning to the rest of you, if you ever get out of a car in a confrontation you are begging to be convicted of something. Stay in your car and shoot someone through the window. If your state doesn't have a castle law you are obligated to speed away and call the police. Those are your only two options, unless you want to go to jail.


Warning to lawyers. If you ever get someone like vectorsrule and a few others called for jury duty, do what you can to dismiss them. They have their minds made up before they ever step into the jury box. And we b*tch and moan about the left doing this.
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#17 User is offline   Taggart Transcontinental 

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Posted 14 May 2019 - 08:49 AM

View PostTikk, on 13 May 2019 - 02:09 PM, said:

I don't know Georgia law.

And I don't know the circumstances or specifics surrounding the death.

So I cannot make any assumptions as to the guilt or innocence of any involved. And neither can anyone else.

The crimes for a traffic accident usually escalate if one the parties involved flee the scene.

Based upon what we do know. Yes, they should have gotten what information they could of the vehicle, the license plate, the individual driving the car, etc. But that may not be everything.


I also agree that it is a stretch to call it Murder. The District Attorney would have to show that she intended to kill the person when she chased the vehicle. Which would almost be impossible to prove. And, more importantly, harder for a fair minded jury to believe.


Yes but a hit and run with no injuries is NOT a death penalty case. This should never have escalated to the point of blocking a car in traffic and drawing a weapon.
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#18 User is offline   Taggart Transcontinental 

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Posted 14 May 2019 - 08:51 AM

View PostDean Adam Smithee, on 13 May 2019 - 05:32 PM, said:

As it happens, I was involved (as the plaintiff/witness)in a VERY similar case back in January of this year here in GA State v Josephine Woolf Allen (It's how I happen to know this particular law.)

Drunk lady backed into me in the parking lot of a liquor store back in January (I was stopping in after work; she was obvioulsy going back for refills). Minor damage, just enough to scuff up my front bumper. She initially stopped. Any other situation. I'd likely have let it slide, BUT in chatting with her I could tell she was at least three sheets to the wind. Heck, she was probably a few sips away from 'blackout' territory. As soon as I said "lets wait for the cops to get here" she took off.

I followed her. Not "chased" but "followed". My intention was to call the cops while following her to report a DUI/DWI but, as luck would have it, I dropped my phone and it slid under my seat. I knew if I stopped to get the phone I'd lose her. Followed her to her house, she pulled into the garage and closed the door. I stayed outside the property, retrieved my phone, got a picture of the house but (by then dark and raining)("It was a dark and stormy night..." LOL) couldn't find a house number. Wanted to call the cops then and there, but after a number of turns in an East Cobb Co subdivision I wasn't exactly sure where I was. I made it home, then worked out where I HAD been when taking the picture of her house, than called the cops.

What sucks is, Cobb Co Sheriffs Deputies show up at my house, take a report. I wanted to NAIL her butt to the wall for DUI/DWI but they said "No", THEY would have had to catch her at the scene. Once she was home and "behind closed doors" they'd never be able to "prove" that she didn't get drunk after the fact. Yeah, I'll buy that.



I can ALMOST see what the DA is getting at. Obviously, her "story" pissed off the cops and/or the DA; NOBODY like being BS'd and SOMETHING must have set them off. Call it a "character flaw" but, until proven otherwise, I tend to "Lean Toward" the LEO side of things. Something must have been "hinky" about her story.

In GA, murder doesn't necessarily mean "intent". Could also be 'felony murder': someone dies in the midst of a felony. The felony being ADW (Assault with a deadly weapon). Or as GA puts it, "Aggravated assault".


Actually your story is a fact, a officer / deputy must see the person on a public road while driving impaired in order to charge for DUI. The lawyer will say she was shaken after the accident and noticed you followed her so she went home to calm her nerves and drunk a bucket of alcohol.
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#19 User is offline   Taggart Transcontinental 

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Posted 14 May 2019 - 08:55 AM

View Postvectorsrule, on 14 May 2019 - 07:10 AM, said:

This was murder. Third degree murder can be defined as homicide committed with the intention of causing bodily harm, but not necessarily death. It can be a killing that results from indifference or negligence or recklessness.

Anybody here hold a Carry Conceal licence? These are the situations that you are WARNED about to avoid.

1. She followed the car. This is an act of aggression when she could have just reported it.
2. She blocked his car. This is an act of aggression, if not kidnapping or holding another person against their will.
3. She left her car with... a gun and confronted him. Act of aggression.
4. She was close enough where he could touch her, maybe she pointed the gun at his face and he was trying to save his own life at that point. All CCW are told to stay at least 21 feet from a threat. Otherwise they might disarm you.
5. She killed him.

She instigated every aspect of this killing, she did EVERYTHING WRONG. This was murder. She wanted a violent confrontation and she got one. If I was on the jury I would vote guilty of murder.

As a warning to the rest of you, if you ever get out of a car in a confrontation you are begging to be convicted of something. Stay in your car and shoot someone through the window. If your state doesn't have a castle law you are obligated to speed away and call the police. Those are your only two options, unless you want to go to jail.



No it is not murder.


Voluntary vs. Involuntary Manslaughter
The Court of Appeals of Virginia used the following definition of voluntary manslaughter: "Voluntary manslaughter may be found upon evidence that an intentional, non-malicious homicide occurred in sudden mutual combat or as a result of heat of passion induced by reasonable provocation." Couture v. Commonwealth, 51 Va. App. 239, 656 S.E.2d 425, 430 (2008) (citing John L. Costello, Virginia Criminal Law & Procedure Section 3.6-1, at 64-65 (3d ed. 2002)).

In contrast, involuntary manslaughter is the unintentional killing of another human being. The Code of Virginia gives some guidance on conduct that qualifies and is punishable as involuntary manslaughter. Section 18.2-36.1. Specifically, Section 18.2-36.1(A) states that an individual who unintentionally causes someone's death as a result of driving under the influence is guilty of involuntary manslaughter.

Use the state's laws. They have Capital Murder 1st and 2nd. 2nd is kind of a catch all but there must be some intent. Manslaughter both voluntary and involuntary are what fits here. This is the law they should have charged her with. The DA is swinging to the fences and this is where they will end up with a plea.

Although it could also be:

</h2>

Quote

<h2>Felony Homicide Section 18.2-33
In addition to the murder charges described above, it is possible for an individual to be charged with felony homicide. Felony homicide occurs when an individual is committing a non-murder felony and someone is accidentally (against the wishes of the individual committing the felony) killed. Section 18.2-33. Felony homicide is considered murder in the second degree and thus has the same penalty– a felony conviction with 5 to 40 years in prison. Section 18.2-33.



This is kind of a BS catchall, I would never live in Virginia their laws are insane. There have to be charging guidelines in there somewhere that indicate when the DA should use which ever charge.






This post has been edited by Taggart Transcontinental: 14 May 2019 - 08:57 AM

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#20 User is offline   Tikk 

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Posted 14 May 2019 - 09:53 AM

View PostTaggart Transcontinental, on 14 May 2019 - 08:49 AM, said:

Yes but a hit and run with no injuries is NOT a death penalty case. This should never have escalated to the point of blocking a car in traffic and drawing a weapon.


IF it is only a hit and run.

As I have pointed out repeatedly. We don't know everything that had gone on.

Especially the way it escalated.

Could she be a crazy lady with newfound superpowers bestowed upon her by her CCL decided she was the Law. Maybe. But maybe not.

Maybe something else occurred. Maybe the guy yelled at her, "Hey so-and-so! I know where you live and am going to murder your children!"

Is it likely? No. Is it impossible? Again. No.
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