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#21 User is offline   Natural Selection 

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Posted 15 September 2019 - 09:33 PM

View PostTimothy, on 15 September 2019 - 07:52 PM, said:

People that are homeless are going to sleep somewhere, criminalizing it doesn't solve or prevent it.


Did anything change for the worse after they legalized homeless camping in Austin?

That's what it prevented.

A solution that solves homelessness needs to address the drugs and mental illness that causes it. Has Austin done anything in that regard?
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#22 User is online   Tikk 

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Posted 15 September 2019 - 11:51 PM

View PostBen Cranklin, on 15 September 2019 - 08:33 PM, said:




I wonder if Timothy felt anything when that rake he stepped on smacked him in the face.


BTW Timothy. One of the fundamental rules of economics that leftists refuse to grasp. Click me.
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#23 User is offline   Natural Selection 

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Posted 16 September 2019 - 12:14 AM

View PostTikk, on 15 September 2019 - 11:51 PM, said:

I wonder if Timothy felt anything when that rake he stepped on smacked him in the face.


That implies the ability to learn. Not something progressives are known for.

Quote

BTW Timothy. One of the fundamental rules of economics that leftists refuse to grasp. Click me.


Excellent link. I saved it as a pdf in case it disappears.
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#24 User is offline   zurg 

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Posted 16 September 2019 - 08:26 AM

View PostTikk, on 15 September 2019 - 11:51 PM, said:

BTW Timothy. One of the fundamental rules of economics that leftists refuse to grasp. Click me.

Fantastic link.
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#25 User is online   tailgunner 

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Posted 16 September 2019 - 08:36 AM

Timothy and his type haven't open up their homes, apartments for these people?
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#26 User is offline   zurg 

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Posted 16 September 2019 - 08:43 AM

View Posttailgunner, on 16 September 2019 - 08:36 AM, said:

Timothy and his type haven't open up their homes, apartments for these people?

No silly. They want YOU to do that.
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#27 User is offline   Natural Selection 

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Posted 16 September 2019 - 08:49 AM

View Posttailgunner, on 16 September 2019 - 08:36 AM, said:

Timothy and his type haven't open up their homes, apartments for these people?



View Postzurg, on 16 September 2019 - 08:43 AM, said:

No silly. They want YOU to do that.



http://i.postimg.cc/WtLnKfyt/socialism-illustrated.png
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#28 User is offline   Taggart Transcontinental 

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Posted 16 September 2019 - 10:26 AM

View PostSeverian, on 15 September 2019 - 05:04 PM, said:

Bet it looked like a scene from The Walking Dead.


it did honestly, i mean they could have shot it and no one would have realized it was homeless, not zombies.
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#29 User is online   Timothy 

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Posted 16 September 2019 - 01:50 PM

View PostNatural Selection, on 15 September 2019 - 09:33 PM, said:

Did anything change for the worse after they legalized homeless camping in Austin?

That's what it prevented.

Not much.

Quote

A solution that solves homelessness needs to address the drugs and mental illness that causes it. Has Austin done anything in that regard?

I agree. The city has been working on getting more shelters with social services attached that can help people get treatment.

View PostTikk, on 15 September 2019 - 11:51 PM, said:

I wonder if Timothy felt anything when that rake he stepped on smacked him in the face.


BTW Timothy. One of the fundamental rules of economics that leftists refuse to grasp. Click me.

Which one? The one about incentives?

There are plenty of other incentives to not be homeless without making camping illegal. People who are homeless are often stuck in a cycle of despair and helplessness, often aggravated by mental illnesses and/or addictions and/or other medical problems. Making it harder to be homeless is more likely to just add another downward pressure onto the downward spiral than motivate them to get out of it. For example, tickets for illegal camping can make it harder to get housing.
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#30 User is offline   Joe the Pagan 

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Posted 16 September 2019 - 03:25 PM

View PostTikk, on 15 September 2019 - 11:51 PM, said:

I wonder if Timothy felt anything when that rake he stepped on smacked him in the face.


BTW Timothy. One of the fundamental rules of economics that leftists refuse to grasp. Click me.


Great link.

I am surprised they left out the Baptists and the Bootleggers.
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#31 User is offline   Rock N' Roll Right Winger 

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Posted 16 September 2019 - 04:14 PM

View PostTimothy, on 15 September 2019 - 07:52 PM, said:

I was wondering when someone would post something about this!

Most of the complaints are either about:

1) Behavior that remains illegal like indecent exposure, littering, assault, aggressive panhandling, blocking the right of way, camping on private property without the owners permission, etc.

2) Things that were already happening like panhandling, camping, or sleeping in public areas. People that are homeless are going to sleep somewhere, criminalizing it doesn't solve or prevent it.

:bs:

Oh yes it most certainly does prevent eliminate and solve it.

Don't you know what a "deterrent" is, Timmah?

View Postjmihop, on 15 September 2019 - 07:54 PM, said:

I'm a little confused. Are you talking about Austin's homeless, or the Austin mayor and city council?

All of 'em.

They're all nuts.
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#32 User is offline   Rock N' Roll Right Winger 

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Posted 16 September 2019 - 04:17 PM

View PostTimothy, on 16 September 2019 - 01:50 PM, said:

Not much.


I agree. The city has been working on getting more shelters with social services attached that can help people get treatment.


Which one? The one about incentives?

There are plenty of other incentives to not be homeless without making camping illegal. People who are homeless are often stuck in a cycle of despair and helplessness, often aggravated by mental illnesses and/or addictions and/or other medical problems. Making it harder to be homeless is more likely to just add another downward pressure onto the downward spiral than motivate them to get out of it. For example, tickets for illegal camping can make it harder to get housing.

Hence why they should be arrested and then committed to mental hospitals.
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#33 User is online   Tikk 

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Posted 16 September 2019 - 04:56 PM

View PostTimothy, on 16 September 2019 - 01:50 PM, said:

Not much.


I agree. The city has been working on getting more shelters with social services attached that can help people get treatment.


Which one? The one about incentives?

There are plenty of other incentives to not be homeless without making camping illegal. People who are homeless are often stuck in a cycle of despair and helplessness, often aggravated by mental illnesses and/or addictions and/or other medical problems. Making it harder to be homeless is more likely to just add another downward pressure onto the downward spiral than motivate them to get out of it. For example, tickets for illegal camping can make it harder to get housing.


Specifically, if you subsidize something (in this discussion make it possible / convenient) you will get more of it.

Vagrancy enforcement not occurring = More Homeless

And permitting it / not enforcing the laws does not help the homeless. In fact, it hurts them. And eventually they will be exposed to more diseases, Hepatitis, pests, and other unsanitary conditions.

You think you're helping them. And that makes you feel good about yourself. It makes you feel morally superior to believe that you care more about these people.


But that's not the case. As pointed out, you're merely addressing the first order of cause (them being able to shelter themselves) and not dealing with the subsequent effects (such as mental health, disease, etc).



And do you notice that this primarily happens in leftist controlled cities (Seattle, San Francisco, Austin, Los Angeles, etc.). You have a brain use it. And try to be objective if you can.
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#34 User is offline   RedSoloCup 

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Posted 16 September 2019 - 05:10 PM

View PostTimothy, on 16 September 2019 - 01:50 PM, said:

Not much.


I agree. The city has been working on getting more shelters with social services attached that can help people get treatment.


Which one? The one about incentives?

There are plenty of other incentives to not be homeless without making camping illegal. People who are homeless are often stuck in a cycle of despair and helplessness, often aggravated by mental illnesses and/or addictions and/or other medical problems. Making it harder to be homeless is more likely to just add another downward pressure onto the downward spiral than motivate them to get out of it. For example, tickets for illegal camping can make it harder to get housing.


Timmah, Timmah, Timmah...don't you ever get tired of looking like a complete fool?
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#35 User is online   Timothy 

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Posted 16 September 2019 - 09:16 PM

View PostTikk, on 16 September 2019 - 04:56 PM, said:

Specifically, if you subsidize something (in this discussion make it possible / convenient) you will get more of it.

Vagrancy enforcement not occurring = More Homeless

Subsidies/incentives work this way when people weigh different choices and make a decision to go a certain route.

The problem is, people generally don't choose to be option in spite of having alternatives that are clear are to them. Note that I'm talking about their perception of what their choices are, not necessarily what the actual choices are. It's usually a downward spiral that they get dragged into, not a deliberate choice.

Quote

And permitting it / not enforcing the laws does not help the homeless. In fact, it hurts them. And eventually they will be exposed to more diseases, Hepatitis, pests, and other unsanitary conditions.

You think you're helping them. And that makes you feel good about yourself. It makes you feel morally superior to believe that you care more about these people.

It depends entirely on what "laws" we are talking about.

And if they have viable alternatives. If you criminalize it without having alternative paths, you effectively just force them to be criminals. Which is where we were with these laws.

Quote

But that's not the case. As pointed out, you're merely addressing the first order of cause (them being able to shelter themselves) and not dealing with the subsequent effects (such as mental health, disease, etc).

It's generally more of a concurrent than subsequent effect. Making it illegal to camp doesn't prevent them from being homeless.

I agree that the major focus needs to be on preventing people from being homeless in the first place.

Quote

And do you notice that this primarily happens in leftist controlled cities (Seattle, San Francisco, Austin, Los Angeles, etc.). You have a brain use it. And try to be objective if you can.

How many cities aren't "leftist controlled"?
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#36 User is offline   Rock N' Roll Right Winger 

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Posted 16 September 2019 - 10:03 PM

View PostTimothy, on 16 September 2019 - 09:16 PM, said:

Subsidies/incentives work this way when people weigh different choices and make a decision to go a certain route.

The problem is, people generally don't choose to be option in spite of having alternatives that are clear are to them. Note that I'm talking about their perception of what their choices are, not necessarily what the actual choices are. It's usually a downward spiral that they get dragged into, not a deliberate choice.


It depends entirely on what "laws" we are talking about.

And if they have viable alternatives. If you criminalize it without having alternative paths, you effectively just force them to be criminals. Which is where we were with these laws.


It's generally more of a concurrent than subsequent effect. Making it illegal to camp doesn't prevent them from being homeless.

I agree that the major focus needs to be on preventing people from being homeless in the first place.


How many cities aren't "leftist controlled"?

:biglaugh:
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#37 User is online   Tikk 

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Posted 16 September 2019 - 11:52 PM

View PostTimothy, on 16 September 2019 - 09:16 PM, said:

Subsidies/incentives work this way when people weigh different choices and make a decision to go a certain route.

The problem is, people generally don't choose to be option in spite of having alternatives that are clear are to them. Note that I'm talking about their perception of what their choices are, not necessarily what the actual choices are. It's usually a downward spiral that they get dragged into, not a deliberate choice.


It depends entirely on what "laws" we are talking about.

And if they have viable alternatives. If you criminalize it without having alternative paths, you effectively just force them to be criminals. Which is where we were with these laws.


It's generally more of a concurrent than subsequent effect. Making it illegal to camp doesn't prevent them from being homeless.

I agree that the major focus needs to be on preventing people from being homeless in the first place.


How many cities aren't "leftist controlled"?



OK. So back in 2008 there was this movie. It was called "Forgetting Sarah Marshall". And in the this movie the girl leaves the main guy for another guy. That other guy, played by Russell Brand marries Sarah Marshall. She eventually breaks up with him. During that breakup she imitates him in a mocking way. She says, "All you say is Boolsheet Boolsheet Boolsheet", mirroring his English accent.

His reply is, "Is that what I really sound like?".





And I'm here to tell you. Yes, Timothy. That's what you sound like.

This whole "It is entirely on what <AIRQUOTE>Laws<CLOSEAIRQUOTE> we are talking about" demonstrates that.

The homeless ALWAYS have a choice. And that choice, because they are insane or drug addicts or whatever, is usually insanity or drug addiction or whatever. And here's the important part. You are making it worse. It's like hoping to cure a heroin addict by giving him all the heroin he wants and hoping for the best.

These people need to be arrested. They need to be evaluated on whether they need professional help OR maybe a leg up OR being institutionalized OR whatever gets them off the street.

But most importantly homelessness needs to be punished. Historically it has been a bad thing. This whole laissez faire method will only result in more death, misery, and poverty.

You are keeping them on the street. Not only that but you are giving them immunity from anything that might help them. AND not only that you are putting their health at risk by letting do whatever the hell they want to build shelters. These people aren't engineers or electricians.

But you're OK with that as long as they are vegan, gluten free, free range homeless. Oh and as long as they vote (D) when your Democratic volunteers round them up on election day with the promise of cash, a free ride, and a hot meal (provided usually by a religious institution, which you probably despise because other than feeding the poor, they hate gays).

Because you care, somehow, more than the rest of us.
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#38 User is offline   stick 

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Posted 17 September 2019 - 11:45 AM

View PostTikk, on 16 September 2019 - 11:52 PM, said:

OK. So back in 2008 there was this movie. It was called "Forgetting Sarah Marshall". And in the this movie the girl leaves the main guy for another guy. That other guy, played by Russell Brand marries Sarah Marshall. She eventually breaks up with him. During that breakup she imitates him in a mocking way. She says, "All you say is Boolsheet Boolsheet Boolsheet", mirroring his English accent.

His reply is, "Is that what I really sound like?".





And I'm here to tell you. Yes, Timothy. That's what you sound like.

This whole "It is entirely on what <AIRQUOTE>Laws<CLOSEAIRQUOTE> we are talking about" demonstrates that.

The homeless ALWAYS have a choice. And that choice, because they are insane or drug addicts or whatever, is usually insanity or drug addiction or whatever. And here's the important part. You are making it worse. It's like hoping to cure a heroin addict by giving him all the heroin he wants and hoping for the best.

These people need to be arrested. They need to be evaluated on whether they need professional help OR maybe a leg up OR being institutionalized OR whatever gets them off the street.

But most importantly homelessness needs to be punished. Historically it has been a bad thing. This whole laissez faire method will only result in more death, misery, and poverty.

You are keeping them on the street. Not only that but you are giving them immunity from anything that might help them. AND not only that you are putting their health at risk by letting do whatever the hell they want to build shelters. These people aren't engineers or electricians.

But you're OK with that as long as they are vegan, gluten free, free range homeless. Oh and as long as they vote (D) when your Democratic volunteers round them up on election day with the promise of cash, a free ride, and a hot meal (provided usually by a religious institution, which you probably despise because other than feeding the poor, they hate gays).

Because you care, somehow, more than the rest of us.


Now if only Timmy can perform a little introspection instead of launching another lecture about how all of this is the right thing to do for these people.

How are those policies working for them, Timmy? Homeless situation getting better? I can tell you that you haven't seen anything like I see here in Portland. When I moved here 23 years ago there wasn't a homeless camp problem at all. Now it's part of life, all along the interstates and bike paths. Pockets of garbage an filth - these people take no responsibility for their lifestyle. Camps get cleaned up only to appear in a new spot. They just move them around and never address the problem. Just wait until the break into YOUR home and take YOUR stuff and violate YOUR personal space...maybe then you'll take some time for introspection...
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#39 User is online   Timothy 

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Posted 17 September 2019 - 02:18 PM

View PostTikk, on 16 September 2019 - 11:52 PM, said:

The homeless ALWAYS have a choice. And that choice, because they are insane or drug addicts or whatever, is usually insanity or drug addiction or whatever. And here's the important part. You are making it worse. It's like hoping to cure a heroin addict by giving him all the heroin he wants and hoping for the best.

These people need to be arrested. They need to be evaluated on whether they need professional help OR maybe a leg up OR being institutionalized OR whatever gets them off the street.

But most importantly homelessness needs to be punished. Historically it has been a bad thing. This whole laissez faire method will only result in more death, misery, and poverty.

You are keeping them on the street. Not only that but you are giving them immunity from anything that might help them. AND not only that you are putting their health at risk by letting do whatever the hell they want to build shelters. These people aren't engineers or electricians.

But you're OK with that as long as they are vegan, gluten free, free range homeless. Oh and as long as they vote (D) when your Democratic volunteers round them up on election day with the promise of cash, a free ride, and a hot meal (provided usually by a religious institution, which you probably despise because other than feeding the poor, they hate gays).

Because you care, somehow, more than the rest of us.

1) You act like this wasn't a problem before and these people didn't exist. If people are seeing more homeless people, it's because they aren't worried as much about hiding themselves. The prohibition on camping pushed people even more to the margins, making it harder to get help. They were already camping. Some of them in the same spots they were before, some in more public areas than before (under a bridge instead of in the woods.)

The right-wing approach of more punishment doesn't always work. Prohibition doesn't always work. It often pushes what is prohibited underground rather than preventing it.

2) Almost everyone says that there needs to be steps taken to get to prevent homelessness in the first place. We'll see how long that lasts until conservatives start complaining about "socialism".
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#40 User is offline   RedSoloCup 

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Posted 17 September 2019 - 02:58 PM

View PostTikk, on 16 September 2019 - 11:52 PM, said:

OK. So back in 2008 there was this movie. It was called "Forgetting Sarah Marshall". And in the this movie the girl leaves the main guy for another guy. That other guy, played by Russell Brand marries Sarah Marshall. She eventually breaks up with him. During that breakup she imitates him in a mocking way. She says, "All you say is Boolsheet Boolsheet Boolsheet", mirroring his English accent.

His reply is, "Is that what I really sound like?".





And I'm here to tell you. Yes, Timothy. That's what you sound like.

This whole "It is entirely on what <AIRQUOTE>Laws<CLOSEAIRQUOTE> we are talking about" demonstrates that.

The homeless ALWAYS have a choice. And that choice, because they are insane or drug addicts or whatever, is usually insanity or drug addiction or whatever. And here's the important part. You are making it worse. It's like hoping to cure a heroin addict by giving him all the heroin he wants and hoping for the best.

These people need to be arrested. They need to be evaluated on whether they need professional help OR maybe a leg up OR being institutionalized OR whatever gets them off the street.

But most importantly homelessness needs to be punished. Historically it has been a bad thing. This whole laissez faire method will only result in more death, misery, and poverty.

You are keeping them on the street. Not only that but you are giving them immunity from anything that might help them. AND not only that you are putting their health at risk by letting do whatever the hell they want to build shelters. These people aren't engineers or electricians.

But you're OK with that as long as they are vegan, gluten free, free range homeless. Oh and as long as they vote (D) when your Democratic volunteers round them up on election day with the promise of cash, a free ride, and a hot meal (provided usually by a religious institution, which you probably despise because other than feeding the poor, they hate gays).

Because you care, somehow, more than the rest of us.


:clap:

View PostTimothy, on 16 September 2019 - 09:16 PM, said:

Subsidies/incentives work this way when people weigh different choices and make a decision to go a certain route.

The problem is, people generally don't choose to be option in spite of having alternatives that are clear are to them. Note that I'm talking about their perception of what their choices are, not necessarily what the actual choices are. It's usually a downward spiral that they get dragged into, not a deliberate choice.


It depends entirely on what "laws" we are talking about.

And if they have viable alternatives. If you criminalize it without having alternative paths, you effectively just force them to be criminals. Which is where we were with these laws.


It's generally more of a concurrent than subsequent effect. Making it illegal to camp doesn't prevent them from being homeless.

I agree that the major focus needs to be on preventing people from being homeless in the first place.


How many cities aren't "leftist controlled"?


:lol:
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