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#41 User is offline   oki 

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Posted 15 March 2019 - 06:55 AM

View PostDean Adam Smithee, on 14 March 2019 - 07:07 PM, said:

Problem is, you can't always trust the data. And in many cases it ranges from one RCH short of fraud to outright lies. And you can't trust a school just because they're an established "name", even prestigious schools are fudging it.

  • Just last year Temple University got stripped of it's MBA rankings in US News & World Reports (Which USED TO BE the gold standard for such things) for flat-out lying about statistics. WHYY: Temple ousts business dean after report finds false data was submitted for years for online MBA rankings.

  • In 2012, Emory got caught at it... And they're a good school that didn't even NEED to fudge it. AJC (2012): Emory ranks No. 20, this time with accurate data. "Nearly a month ago the college admitted that for more than a decade it intentionally misreported data to groups that rate colleges."

  • In 2011 a class-action was filed against 15 law schools for this: Breaking: 15 more ABA-approved law schools to be sued "With these lawsuits, nearly 10% of all ABA-approved law schools across eight states will be accused of tortiously misrepresenting job placement statistics and violating state consumer protection laws... ďThe numbers reported by the schools just donít comport with the reality of the legal job market."



I should have clarified to say that the data the school would provide would be in regards to the degree/program itself industry wide. Not the placement or earnings of that schools graduates in particular.
IE what is the placement rate, wages 6 mo 12 mo 5 year for the occupation itself no matter the school or university.
This would at least keep things honest and give students an idea of what to expect.

No graduates from OUR PROGRAM earned X and found a job in X amount of time. Your right schools will lie their f'ng teeth because they want the money. But, knowing that you won't make jack sh$t much less even find a job or one enough to pay of the debt and live would help put an end to this crap. Normally I am not for 'more government' in any way shape or form. But this might be one of those rare times when having that data available would be helpful.

Largely it's just a matter of keeping in touch with people after they graduate and then asking them a few basic questions or even earnings statements but not tracking by name per sei. Not perfect and has it's holes, but at least it would give people a decent idea what they can expect to earn job placement etc. Probably never happen though as schools cannot, will not and shall not ever shrink...

People need to realize some jobs just don't pay as their is no demand. Doesn't matter how much you spent on a degree or where that degree came from. It is what it is and your the one who ends up with the debt. The school don't give a damn about you once they have your money or you leave their campus.

Oki
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#42 User is offline   Junto 

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Posted 15 March 2019 - 07:22 AM

View PostLadybird, on 15 March 2019 - 05:44 AM, said:

Yes, of course there are. That's where those of us in the less than well off neighborhoods would go trick-or-treating. I remember incidents of black families moving to white neighborhoods and getting fire bombed by the unwelcome wagon. The auto-insurance might be higher, but you won't have a Molotov cocktail thrown through the living room window.

This might help..
https://praisedc.com...ies-in-america/

Your link backs by position, and that's not even mentioning it only shows the richest black neighborhoods in the country. You said upper-middle class, mostly black communities. Show me all these upscale, upper-middle class black communities outside major major major metropolitan areas. Detroit, Cleveland, Denver, Salt Lake City, Bismarck, Boise, Reno, Nashville, Indianapolis, Minneapolis, Phoenix, etc all have one thing in common - no upscale black communities. Blacks with money in most cities, not in a few major population centers, move with whites with money. Why? To get away from blacks, whites and everyone else without money for several reasons, including the crime that is associated with those communities.
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#43 User is offline   Ladybird 

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Posted 15 March 2019 - 07:51 AM

View PostJunto, on 15 March 2019 - 07:22 AM, said:

Your link backs by position, and that's not even mentioning it only shows the richest black neighborhoods in the country. You said upper-middle class, mostly black communities. Show me all these upscale, upper-middle class black communities outside major major major metropolitan areas. Detroit, Cleveland, Denver, Salt Lake City, Bismarck, Boise, Reno, Nashville, Indianapolis, Minneapolis, Phoenix, etc all have one thing in common - no upscale black communities. Blacks with money in most cities, not in a few major population centers, move with whites with money. Why? To get away from blacks, whites and everyone else without money for several reasons, including the crime that is associated with those communities.


NYC isnít a ďmajor major major metropolitan areaĒ?
Iím not following you. Is it that there are (probably) no upper middle class communities in South Dakota, that youíre driving at?

This post has been edited by Ladybird: 15 March 2019 - 07:57 AM

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#44 User is offline   Junto 

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Posted 15 March 2019 - 08:22 AM

View PostLadybird, on 15 March 2019 - 07:51 AM, said:

NYC isnít a ďmajor major major metropolitan areaĒ?
Iím not following you. Is it that there are (probably) no upper middle class communities in South Dakota, that youíre driving at?

You pull out some stat that says that communities made up of mostly well-to-do blacks are charged more money for insurance than whites who live in communities not made up of mostly well-to-do blacks. I said show me all these communities of blacks being gouged (outside of a few major metropolitan areas - like anywhere else in the country besides a few very large population centers). They don't exist outside of said areas, so your assertion that there is some systemic gouging of blacks who are well-to-do is bunk.
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#45 User is offline   Ladybird 

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Posted 15 March 2019 - 08:52 AM

View PostJunto, on 15 March 2019 - 08:22 AM, said:

You pull out some stat that says that communities made up of mostly well-to-do blacks are charged more money for insurance than whites who live in communities not made up of mostly well-to-do blacks. I said show me all these communities of blacks being gouged (outside of a few major metropolitan areas - like anywhere else in the country besides a few very large population centers). They don't exist outside of said areas, so your assertion that there is some systemic gouging of blacks who are well-to-do is bunk.


The statistic was taken from a study in the article I posted.
http://money.com/mon...discrimination/
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#46 User is offline   Junto 

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Posted 15 March 2019 - 09:16 AM

View PostLadybird, on 15 March 2019 - 08:52 AM, said:

The statistic was taken from a study in the article I posted.
http://money.com/mon...discrimination/

I had no idea there were upper-middle income , almost exclusively black communities in Detroit or Louisville. Picture me skeptical. I would really like to see what their definition of 'upper-middle income' exclusively black communities are, and how the stats looks like. The article switches in and out of comparing just black or white communities, and then also throws in well-off black communities too.

Are there a wide variety of non-systemic racism data points, policies, explanations and statistics that might point to a better understanding of why that link might be true (if we assume there are Black community Oasis's)? Maybe, but it isn't clear how they are getting their numbers or which data set they are referring to from one sentence to another.

This post has been edited by Junto: 15 March 2019 - 09:16 AM

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#47 User is offline   oki 

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Posted 15 March 2019 - 09:21 AM

View PostLadybird, on 15 March 2019 - 08:52 AM, said:

The statistic was taken from a study in the article I posted.
http://money.com/mon...discrimination/



There are many factors in play when Insurance rates are determined.
If it's a high crime rate area, the persons credit history, their criminal record even minor, drug and alcohol abuse, it can get unbelievably deep. Even your profession. AND... given the fact that people of color are more likely to die due to violence and younger(and this is an awful but true statistic) that can affect insurance rates.
Plus, if you look deep enough you will see a similar statistic for poor white neighborhoods vs rich white ones.

To put it simply, if you have more claims or people from X zip code end up costing you more as an insurance company you are going to charge more for anyone in that zip code. No more or less racist than a Pizza company refusing to deliver to an area of town. It's about limiting and mitigating losses as much as possible. Is it always fair to the individual or right per sei? Hell no, but remember insurance is about SHARING RISK.

Factors which can easily effect your premiums.
Not just driving history or record, but also your location, your credit score, your payment history, bankruptcy, ANY criminal record, your profession, if you live in a high crime area, KNOWN ASSOCIATES, a number of other factors.
Insurance companies are trying to limit their risk of loss as much as possible. Not justifying anything or defending, just explaining how it works and why.


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#48 User is offline   oki 

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Posted 15 March 2019 - 09:28 AM

View PostJunto, on 15 March 2019 - 09:16 AM, said:

I had no idea there were upper-middle income , almost exclusively black communities in Detroit or Louisville. Picture me skeptical. I would really like to see what their definition of 'upper-middle income' exclusively black communities are, and how the stats looks like. The article switches in and out of comparing just black or white communities, and then also throws in well-off black communities too.

Are there a wide variety of non-systemic racism data points, policies, explanations and statistics that might point to a better understanding of why that link might be true (if we assume there are Black community Oasis's)? Maybe, but it isn't clear how they are getting their numbers or which data set they are referring to from one sentence to another.


It's easy to see racism when actual data is left out(purposefully). Insurance companies take in a lot of data when they determine rates. More than just what they ask you on any application. Much of it behind the scenes. If you live in a high crime rate area, or people in the zip have high rate of claims vs other zip codes than can easily affect it. Sucks that's how it works, but people need to understand that Insurance is essentially SHARING RISK. That sharing can and often does mean those around you, those most like you, and even vehicle alike or similar to yours. And a whole lot more. As dirty as it may sound (but true) an insurance company must do their utmost to limit their losses as well. And that means factoring in as much as they possibly can to limit losses both real and potential. As I stated to LB not trying to defend nor justify, just trying to explain and help people understand things.

Oki
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#49 User is offline   Junto 

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Posted 15 March 2019 - 09:39 AM

View Postoki, on 15 March 2019 - 09:28 AM, said:

It's easy to see racism when actual data is left out(purposefully). Insurance companies take in a lot of data when they determine rates. More than just what they ask you on any application. Much of it behind the scenes. If you live in a high crime rate area, or people in the zip have high rate of claims vs other zip codes than can easily affect it. Sucks that's how it works, but people need to understand that Insurance is essentially SHARING RISK. That sharing can and often does mean those around you, those most like you, and even vehicle alike or similar to yours. And a whole lot more. As dirty as it may sound (but true) an insurance company must do their utmost to limit their losses as well. And that means factoring in as much as they possibly can to limit losses both real and potential. As I stated to LB not trying to defend nor justify, just trying to explain and help people understand things.

Oki


There are sociological and environmental factors at play too. White flight leaves a vacuum in neighborhoods that gets filled by blacks coming up with more money. Now the white community is that much farther away from the poorer (black, Latino, white, etc) communities. But now the poorer communities are right up against the homes where the blacks with money moved to. Crimes and other issues that cause rates to rise spills over more easily into the newly created middle class black community because they are closest to the poorer community. Cars parked on the street instead of the garage so they get broke into, or stolen on cold winter morning while the owner lets the car warm up.

Blacks moving up creates a vacuum for poor (or illegal in many cases) Hispanic communities to come in and take their spot. With poorer communities you also see a rise in people driving around with no insurance, so when they hit your car, your insurance can't get paid.

There is also the Fresh Prince of Bel Air, or Trayvon Martin factor. When cousin Will or Trayvon gets sent out of the 'hood to go live with his extended family (better schools, getting away from gang influence), he often brings the 'hood with him. This causes crime stats to go up, which raises rates (and also drives White flight).

This post has been edited by Junto: 15 March 2019 - 09:41 AM

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#50 User is offline   oki 

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Posted 15 March 2019 - 10:08 AM

View PostJunto, on 15 March 2019 - 09:39 AM, said:

There are sociological and environmental factors at play too. White flight leaves a vacuum in neighborhoods that gets filled by blacks coming up with more money. Now the white community is that much farther away from the poorer (black, Latino, white, etc) communities. But now the poorer communities are right up against the homes where the blacks with money moved to. Crimes and other issues that cause rates to rise spills over more easily into the newly created middle class black community because they are closest to the poorer community. Cars parked on the street instead of the garage so they get broke into, or stolen on cold winter morning while the owner lets the car warm up.

Blacks moving up creates a vacuum for poor (or illegal in many cases) Hispanic communities to come in and take their spot. With poorer communities you also see a rise in people driving around with no insurance, so when they hit your car, your insurance can't get paid.

There is also the Fresh Prince of Bel Air, or Trayvon Martin factor. When cousin Will or Trayvon gets sent out of the 'hood to go live with his extended family (better schools, getting away from gang influence), he often brings the 'hood with him. This causes crime stats to go up, which raises rates (and also drives White flight).


Absolutely, it's painful but sadly true. Until this is actually addressed and no longer tolerated nothing will change. Those who think it's all because of poverty need to pull their heads out of their asses and stop making excuses. If poverty was the cause why then was the black family the MOST STABLE of any, that is up until the 1960's?
If poverty was the cause then the poor black neighborhoods in the 1930's should have been worse war zones then they are know.

As far as insurance goes, has anyone bothered to look at any poor mostly white, Hispanic or Asian areas?
Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't Detroit still the car jacking capital of Michigan if not Midwest?

Oki
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#51 User is offline   Ladybird 

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Posted 15 March 2019 - 10:19 AM

View Postoki, on 15 March 2019 - 09:28 AM, said:

It's easy to see racism when actual data is left out(purposefully). Insurance companies take in a lot of data when they determine rates. More than just what they ask you on any application. Much of it behind the scenes. If you live in a high crime rate area, or people in the zip have high rate of claims vs other zip codes than can easily affect it. Sucks that's how it works, but people need to understand that Insurance is essentially SHARING RISK. That sharing can and often does mean those around you, those most like you, and even vehicle alike or similar to yours. And a whole lot more. As dirty as it may sound (but true) an insurance company must do their utmost to limit their losses as well. And that means factoring in as much as they possibly can to limit losses both real and potential. As I stated to LB not trying to defend nor justify, just trying to explain and help people understand things.

Oki


I donít dispute that there are many factors that go into insurance rates. There were suggestions that her actions alone were the cause of her high rates. I pointed out living in a black neighborhood could also be a factor in her high premium. I havenít seen anything to dispute that.
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#52 User is offline   Junto 

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Posted 15 March 2019 - 10:20 AM

View Postoki, on 15 March 2019 - 10:08 AM, said:

Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't Detroit still the car jacking capital of Michigan if not Midwest?

Oki




For those who like rap, here is Joyner Lucas - Ross Capicchioni. Ross Capicchioni was a white kid in Detroit that got sent to a mainly non-white school and is quickly befriended by a black kid. What he didn't know was that kid was trying to be initiated into a gang, and they told him if he killed someone he was in for life. That kid figured Ross would be an easy target. He sets him up, has him drive him to a vacant neighborhood and shoots him in the head, shoulder and arm I believe. Miraculously he didn't die.

This video shows both perspectives - Ross's point of view is half the song, the other kid's is the second half. The second video is the interview with Ross after the fact.


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#53 User is offline   oki 

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Posted 15 March 2019 - 10:49 AM

View PostLadybird, on 15 March 2019 - 10:19 AM, said:

I donít dispute that there are many factors that go into insurance rates. There were suggestions that her actions alone were the cause of her high rates. I pointed out living in a black neighborhood could also be a factor in her high premium. I havenít seen anything to dispute that.



So then do you dispute that the neighborhood itself could very well be the reason, that if the exact same conditions exist in a different neighborhoods they would experience the same higher rates? Or is it just because it's mostly black?
By the way, Auto insurance companies are forbidden to base rates in part or solely on race. OTHER FACTORS such as higher crime, associates can be a factor.

Oki
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#54 User is offline   Junto 

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Posted 15 March 2019 - 11:04 AM

People claim the death penalty is racist because while black males make up a small percentage of the population, they make up the highest percentage of death row inmates. White males make up a higher actual execution percentage though. It's all in how you want to look at things.

No one here argues that blacks should pay more insurance because they are black, or wants a world with two-tiered treatment like that. But it seems like not all of us are capable of understanding why it might seem that way if numbers are presented a certain way, or they choose to not see it any other way.
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#55 User is offline   oki 

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Posted 15 March 2019 - 12:35 PM

View PostJunto, on 15 March 2019 - 10:20 AM, said:



For those who like rap, here is Joyner Lucas - Ross Capicchioni. Ross Capicchioni was a white kid in Detroit that got sent to a mainly non-white school and is quickly befriended by a black kid. What he didn't know was that kid was trying to be initiated into a gang, and they told him if he killed someone he was in for life. That kid figured Ross would be an easy target. He sets him up, has him drive him to a vacant neighborhood and shoots him in the head, shoulder and arm I believe. Miraculously he didn't die.

This video shows both perspectives - Ross's point of view is half the song, the other kid's is the second half. The second video is the interview with Ross after the fact.




Dear God almighty in heaven. If that is the mentality of even a small portion of people in these areas it's no wonder the problems are so great. Where are all the 'black leaders' demanding answers? Where was or is Obama? Where are the news crews? Yeah, I thought so, since the victims skin color isn't worth $ $ $, laws or anything else they say nothing. That's the real injustice, people only give a damn when they think they can use it to gain something.

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#56 User is online   zurg 

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Posted 16 March 2019 - 05:55 AM

View Postoki, on 15 March 2019 - 12:35 PM, said:

Dear God almighty in heaven. If that is the mentality of even a small portion of people in these areas it's no wonder the problems are so great. Where are all the 'black leaders' demanding answers? Where was or is Obama? Where are the news crews? Yeah, I thought so, since the victims skin color isn't worth $ $ $, laws or anything else they say nothing. That's the real injustice, people only give a damn when they think they can use it to gain something.

Oki

Whereís LB, condemning this?
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#57 User is offline   Ladybird 

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Posted 16 March 2019 - 07:16 AM

View Postzurg, on 16 March 2019 - 05:55 AM, said:

Whereís LB, condemning this?


It's a terrible thing that happened. This has what to do with me?

Ever hear of White Settlement, Texas?
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#58 User is offline   Ladybird 

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Posted 16 March 2019 - 07:18 AM

Whoops..

This post has been edited by Ladybird: 16 March 2019 - 07:25 AM

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#59 User is online   zurg 

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Posted 16 March 2019 - 07:32 AM

View PostLadybird, on 16 March 2019 - 07:16 AM, said:

It's a terrible thing that happened. This has what to do with me?

Ever hear of White Settlement, Texas?

You respond with anecdotes and you goad people here about racial matters all the time but when itís something that hits home for you race wise, youíre the silence of the lambs. And now, all you can muster is ďa terrible thing happenedĒ. Itís way more than terrible, Ladybird. Thatís racist violence to the extreme by a black guy against a white guy. Face REALITY.
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