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12 Killed, Including Sheriff's Sergeant, in Thousand Oaks Bar Shooting Rate Topic: -----

#21 User is offline   Severian 

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Posted 08 November 2018 - 06:01 PM

In Georgia it's legal to carry CCW in a bar. We haven't had any mass shooting or loads of problems due to LEGAL weapon carriers. I notice that after some bad press, the local Waffle House's sign says "No Illegal Weapons." After getting a lot of bad press for throwing out some cops and off duty MPs they apparently changed the policy. I read that as, my gun is legal, I'm a licensed CCW holder, so I carry in the Awful Waffle whenever I go there.

My favorite booze store here I stopped patronizing due to their putting up a no guns allowed sign. I talked with them about it, apparently a couple of times open carry types acted in a way that disturbed the staff. I asked them, then why not just say "No Open Carry" instead of all guns, you don't know if someone is concealed carry so how could you be freaked out? Didn't make an impression on them, so I told the woman that it saddened me, but I was not going to be able to patronize her store anymore.
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#22 User is online   Dean Adam Smithee 

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Posted 08 November 2018 - 06:02 PM

View PostMontyPython, on 08 November 2018 - 03:38 PM, said:

Who said "shoulder-to-shoulder"?


This place has photos in their "gallery". Yes, "shoulder-to-shoulder" pretty much describes the crowd. Or at least what the crowd CAN be on some nights. And this WAS "College Night".

http://oi68.tinypic.com/29f6pep.jpg


View PostMontyPython, on 08 November 2018 - 03:38 PM, said:

And why on earth wouldn't armed security be a good idea?


Armed guards with sidearms trying to work their way through the above to get to a potential "Trouble Spot". ? That's just ASKING for more problems than it solves. Ever have someone grab something from you and then start a game of "keep-a-way"? Yeah that's exactly what I could imagine with a holstered sidearm in a crowd like that... IF it got rowdy enough.

IMHO, in such a scenario - VERY "Close Quarters" - batons/billy clubs/saps are better. Go all Altamont on the S.O.B if need be.

In fact, that's what DID happen at Altamont. Dude was pissed off at getting kicked out of the festival. Came back later with a revolver, drew it near the stage, and was promptly beaten to death by a Hell's Angel who was providing security. The Hell's Angel was acquited.

(Yeah, I know, sucks that the media portrays Altamont the way it does, some "innocent" getting beating up by a biker, and like to portray Altamont as the "end of an era"; They always overlook the fact that this A-hole drew a pistol; It COULD HAVE been the scenario at hand in this topic but for the Hell's Angels providing "security".)


If the Hell's Angels can provide ample "security" at a disorganized fustercluck like Altamont without being armed themselves, then it seems to me THAT is the "gold standard" for "Club Security". And by "Club" I do mean "Club" in both senses of the word.
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#23 User is online   Dean Adam Smithee 

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Posted 08 November 2018 - 06:20 PM

View PostSeverian, on 08 November 2018 - 06:01 PM, said:

In Georgia it's legal to carry CCW in a bar. We haven't had any mass shooting or loads of problems due to LEGAL weapon carriers. I notice that after some bad press, the local Waffle House's sign says "No Illegal Weapons." After getting a lot of bad press for throwing out some cops and off duty MPs they apparently changed the policy. I read that as, my gun is legal, I'm a licensed CCW holder, so I carry in the Awful Waffle whenever I go there.

My favorite booze store here I stopped patronizing due to their putting up a no guns allowed sign. I talked with them about it, apparently a couple of times open carry types acted in a way that disturbed the staff. I asked them, then why not just say "No Open Carry" instead of all guns, you don't know if someone is concealed carry so how could you be freaked out? Didn't make an impression on them, so I told the woman that it saddened me, but I was not going to be able to patronize her store anymore.


Tower liquors??? Iconic in the Atlanta Area.

Me, I'd rather have a "No cell phone talking while in line sign". Or, better yet, a "Cashiers: Don't answer the phone while you're attending to a customer" rule.

I really, really need to create a form letter for such cases:


"To whom it may concern:

Who is more important to your business? A guy like me with cash in hand standing in front of the register? Or a person on the phone who MIGHT be a potential sale?"

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#24 User is offline   SARGE 

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Posted 08 November 2018 - 06:30 PM

View PostLadybird, on 08 November 2018 - 03:50 PM, said:

It wasn’t just a few, but a large group of people that have survived two mass shootings.
https://www.huffingt...4b0769d24ca27c8



Yeah, uhuh. I'm going to click on a 'huffpo' link.

Like you going to WND or Infowars. :coolshades:
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#25 User is offline   MontyPython 

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Posted 08 November 2018 - 08:37 PM

View PostDean Adam Smithee, on 08 November 2018 - 06:02 PM, said:

Armed guards with sidearms trying to work their way through the above to get to a potential "Trouble Spot". ? That's just ASKING for more problems than it solves. Ever have someone grab something from you and then start a game of "keep-a-way"? Yeah that's exactly what I could imagine with a holstered sidearm in a crowd like that... IF it got rowdy enough.


Then make it a small gun in a concealed shoulder-holster.


View PostDean Adam Smithee, on 08 November 2018 - 06:02 PM, said:

IMHO, in such a scenario - VERY "Close Quarters" - batons/billy clubs/saps are better. Go all Altamont on the S.O.B if need be.

In fact, that's what DID happen at Altamont. Dude was pissed off at getting kicked out of the festival. Came back later with a revolver, drew it near the stage, and was promptly beaten to death by a Hell's Angel who was providing security. The Hell's Angel was acquited.

(Yeah, I know, sucks that the media portrays Altamont the way it does, some "innocent" getting beating up by a biker, and like to portray Altamont as the "end of an era"; They always overlook the fact that this A-hole drew a pistol; It COULD HAVE been the scenario at hand in this topic but for the Hell's Angels providing "security".)


If the Hell's Angels can provide ample "security" at a disorganized fustercluck like Altamont without being armed themselves, then it seems to me THAT is the "gold standard" for "Club Security". And by "Club" I do mean "Club" in both senses of the word.


????

Have you ever watched the movie "Gimme Shelter"? It's the documentary filmed at the Altamont concert.

A - Hiring the Hell's Angels as "security" to begin with was the first and biggest mistake.

B - The second mistake was their "pay": All the free beer they could drink.

C - Meredith Hunter was stabbed to death, not beat to death, by a Hell's Angel named Alan Passaro. The HAs had been spoiling for a fight with Hunter all night because they didn't like a black guy coming to the show with a white girlfriend. They had been pushing Hunter around all night, and finally in fear for his very life, Hunter pulled his gun, the gun he could have pulled all along if he had ever intended to murder somebody. At that point huge HA Alan Passaro overwhelmed him from behind and stabbed him to death.

UNLIKE the Hell's Angel incident at Altamont I would hope that any armed security professionals at nightclubs would have at least some professional security training, wouldn't be paid in free alcohol, wouldn't get smashed on that alcohol while "working", wouldn't be specifically targeting concertgoers with arbitrary violence, and especially wouldn't target a black guy just because he had a white girlfriend.

:coolshades:
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#26 User is offline   trekqueen 

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Posted 09 November 2018 - 06:28 AM

This hits too close to home. I lived, went to college, and worked after graduating in that town from 2001-2016 when I moved to the east coast. My alma mater just up the road lost students and has many injured. I know people who know people hurt and killed. One of my pals from our college republican days is a marine and was good friends with the marine who died saving people. Friends met up with him just two weeks ago.

While in college, I went to that bar often on Wednesday college night. It's a friendly atmosphere and very friendly, not a typical bar. Minors are permitted in and are marked so they can't get alcohol. It's popular with Christian groups and it's a country bar often with line dancing. The city is one of the safest in the country and often makes the news articles stating such.

Law enforcement support is huge there and get high marks. LEOs were there in three min and it's likely Sgt Helus from the sheriff department in confronting this psychopath helped save lives by sacrificing his.

I'm having thoughts going back to the Isla Vista (Santa Barbara) shooter who had mental folks called on him too and so many others of these shooters had the same but the authorities determined they couldn't do anything.
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#27 User is offline   trekqueen 

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Posted 09 November 2018 - 06:31 AM

On top of all that, yesterday afternoon wildfires broke out on the west edge of the city and thousands are evacuating. On the other end of the valley towards the LA county line another fire broke out there and is forcing evacs too. Homes are being lost. That one is burning the meltdown area of the Santa Susanna Field Laboratory (wiki it) location with toxic material possibly being released.
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#28 User is offline   trekqueen 

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Posted 09 November 2018 - 06:35 AM

View PostSARGE, on 08 November 2018 - 06:30 PM, said:

Yeah, uhuh. I'm going to click on a 'huffpo' link.

Like you going to WND or Infowars. :coolshades:


No, people in the greater county area who survived the shooting in vegas often would meet at the bar as a support type gathering for each other.

When vegas happened, our former neighbors are big into that scene and we feared they were there. They werent thankfully. The Borderline bar was where they met two decades ago ans their teen daughter wanting to be a country singer often performs at borderline. Thankfully none of them were there but her manager often is but not this night.
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#29 User is offline   grimreefer 

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Posted 09 November 2018 - 09:29 AM

Quote

Report: Thousand Oaks Shooter’s Motive May Have Been Gun Control

The Daily Caller
8:18 AM 11/09/2018 | US
Scott Morefield | Reporter

excerpt:

The person recently accused of shooting and killing several patrons at a bar in Thousand Oaks, Calif. may have been at least partially motivated by the issue of gun control, according to a CNN report published Thursday night.

CNN revealed a Facebook post authorities believe was made by the gunman close to his deadly attack:

I hope people call me insane… (laughing emojis).. wouldn’t that just be a big ball of irony? Yeah.. I’m insane, but the only thing you people do after these shootings is ‘hopes and prayers’.. or ‘keep you in my thoughts’… every time… and wonder why these keep happening…

The post, if written by Ian David Long, displays a grasp of how his then-coming actions would affect the inevitable debate about gun control that would follow. Gun control advocates typically mock and brush off attempts at offering “thoughts” or “prayers” after a tragedy involving a weapon usually unless those condolences are followed by appeals for gun control.

*SNIP*

LINK

Wouldn't be surprising, if true. I've actually been expecting something like that eventually.


And there is no wondering why these things keep happening. We live in a relatively free society that is easily taken advantage of by evil. To do away with those freedoms is to bow to and invite more evil in.

This post has been edited by grimreefer: 09 November 2018 - 09:30 AM

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#30 User is offline   Ladybird 

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Posted 09 November 2018 - 09:58 AM

View Postgrimreefer, on 09 November 2018 - 09:29 AM, said:

Wouldn't be surprising, if true. I've actually been expecting something like that eventually.


And there is no wondering why these things keep happening. We live in a relatively free society that is easily taken advantage of by evil. To do away with those freedoms is to bow to and invite more evil in.


He could have been talking about the state of mental healthcare in this country. Considering his history, it seem more likely than his advocating for gun control.
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#31 User is offline   Kilmerfan 

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Posted 09 November 2018 - 10:18 AM

The killer was pro gun control

https://www.dailymai...fornia-bar.html
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#32 User is offline   trekqueen 

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Posted 09 November 2018 - 10:38 AM

View PostLadybird, on 09 November 2018 - 09:58 AM, said:

He could have been talking about the state of mental healthcare in this country. Considering his history, it seem more likely than his advocating for gun control.


And he killed someone from his veteran community who reached out and was incredibly active to help people like him.
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#33 User is offline   Ladybird 

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Posted 09 November 2018 - 10:40 AM

View PostKilmerfan, on 09 November 2018 - 10:18 AM, said:

The killer was pro gun control

https://www.dailymai...fornia-bar.html


Quote

“According to former friends and classmates, Long was bullied at Newbury Park High School for his lazy eye and could not take jokes well.

He hoped to be a professional baseball player but was not talented enough and did not have a good rapport with other members of the varsity team.

One friend said he was 'cocky' and was 'one of those bros who drove a huge car to high school.'

The friend, Rebekah Homokay, told The Wall Street Journal that he set his sights on the Marines because he 'loved America and loved guns.'

His Facebook post read: 'I hope people call me insane... (laughing emojis).. wouldn't that just be a big ball of irony?

'Yeah.. I'm insane, but the only thing you people do after these shootings is 'hopes and prayers'.. or 'keep you in my thoughts'... every time... and wonder why these keep happening...'

The remarkable post, which uses language common to gun control advocates, could not be independently confirmed by DailyMail.com.

Long, a Marine combat veteran who investigators said may have had PTSD, was a regular at the bar where the shooting occurred, several of his friends said.


Some contradictions here.

And it sounds like he had problems well before joining the military.
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#34 User is offline   Junto 

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Posted 09 November 2018 - 12:00 PM

View PostMontyPython, on 08 November 2018 - 08:37 PM, said:

Then make it a small gun in a concealed shoulder-holster.




????

Have you ever watched the movie "Gimme Shelter"? It's the documentary filmed at the Altamont concert.

A - Hiring the Hell's Angels as "security" to begin with was the first and biggest mistake.

B - The second mistake was their "pay": All the free beer they could drink.

C - Meredith Hunter was stabbed to death, not beat to death, by a Hell's Angel named Alan Passaro. The HAs had been spoiling for a fight with Hunter all night because they didn't like a black guy coming to the show with a white girlfriend. They had been pushing Hunter around all night, and finally in fear for his very life, Hunter pulled his gun, the gun he could have pulled all along if he had ever intended to murder somebody. At that point huge HA Alan Passaro overwhelmed him from behind and stabbed him to death.

UNLIKE the Hell's Angel incident at Altamont I would hope that any armed security professionals at nightclubs would have at least some professional security training, wouldn't be paid in free alcohol, wouldn't get smashed on that alcohol while "working", wouldn't be specifically targeting concertgoers with arbitrary violence, and especially wouldn't target a black guy just because he had a white girlfriend.

:coolshades:




*semi-graphic

(skip to 2:05 for slo-mo)

This post has been edited by Junto: 09 November 2018 - 12:01 PM

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#35 User is offline   oki 

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Posted 09 November 2018 - 12:23 PM

View PostLadybird, on 09 November 2018 - 10:40 AM, said:

Some contradictions here.

And it sounds like he had problems well before joining the military.


Yupp loving the country and guns sure is a sign of trouble all right.

Let you in on a few secrets.
City boys rarely make good soldiers. Why?
Because they usually can't shoot.
Have a harder time physically as they aren't usually use to the hard work.
More often have disciplinary issues.

The podunk small town Country Bumpkins typically sail right through with few issues.
Used to hard work.
Growing up with guns.
Growing up to be respectful and take orders.


All of this has typically been the case for 200 plus years.
It was also extremely evident in the Civil War. With the North largely being made up of city boys who didn't know jack squat about skills to be a Soldier ESPECIALLY Marksmanship the Southern Soldiers typically out performed them something terrible.

https://www.battlefi...-war-casualties
Despite the North having damn near THREE TIMES the number of Soldiers they still lost nearly a fourth more then what the South did.

This love of guns and Country has served us quite well. From the Revolutionary War, Civil War, WWI, WWI, Korea, Vietnam, GW1, GW2, Afghanistan, Iraq, this has been something which has helped to set our military apart. It means far less training and a much more capable Soldier.
Very few Armies around the world have people start training able to even qualify with a rifle much less able to qualify Expert.

Yes there are unhealthy and dangerous obsessions, but I'll tell you another secret. When sh$t hits the fan you want people around you that will kill without hesitation or remorse. Don't like the idea that we must put young men and woman in harms way? Then we should build a very tall and impenetrable border wall, line it with machine gun nests, patrol with combat aircraft, let little to no one in and out, trade with virtually no one and pat ourselves on our backs about how we have finally said enough. There ain't much in between. Either you trade with other nations try to maintain positive and healthy relations, help your allies, AND MAINTAIN A STRONG MILITARY or you wall yourself in and make sure nothing goes in and out.



Oki
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#36 User is offline   Ladybird 

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Posted 09 November 2018 - 01:14 PM

View Postoki, on 09 November 2018 - 12:23 PM, said:

Yupp loving the country and guns sure is a sign of trouble all right.

Let you in on a few secrets.
City boys rarely make good soldiers. Why?
Because they usually can't shoot.
Have a harder time physically as they aren't usually use to the hard work.
More often have disciplinary issues.

The podunk small town Country Bumpkins typically sail right through with few issues.
Used to hard work.
Growing up with guns.
Growing up to be respectful and take orders.


All of this has typically been the case for 200 plus years.
It was also extremely evident in the Civil War. With the North largely being made up of city boys who didn't know jack squat about skills to be a Soldier ESPECIALLY Marksmanship the Southern Soldiers typically out performed them something terrible.

https://www.battlefi...-war-casualties
Despite the North having damn near THREE TIMES the number of Soldiers they still lost nearly a fourth more then what the South did.

This love of guns and Country has served us quite well. From the Revolutionary War, Civil War, WWI, WWI, Korea, Vietnam, GW1, GW2, Afghanistan, Iraq, this has been something which has helped to set our military apart. It means far less training and a much more capable Soldier.
Very few Armies around the world have people start training able to even qualify with a rifle much less able to qualify Expert.

Yes there are unhealthy and dangerous obsessions, but I'll tell you another secret. When sh$t hits the fan you want people around you that will kill without hesitation or remorse. Don't like the idea that we must put young men and woman in harms way? Then we should build a very tall and impenetrable border wall, line it with machine gun nests, patrol with combat aircraft, let little to no one in and out, trade with virtually no one and pat ourselves on our backs about how we have finally said enough. There ain't much in between. Either you trade with other nations try to maintain positive and healthy relations, help your allies, AND MAINTAIN A STRONG MILITARY or you wall yourself in and make sure nothing goes in and out.



Oki



Did you read the article? People that knew him said he had problems before joining the military.

I mentioned the guns and country part because some are saying he was an advocate of gun control and that's why he did it. Seems like a contradiction.
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#37 User is offline   MontyPython 

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Posted 09 November 2018 - 01:28 PM

View PostJunto, on 09 November 2018 - 12:00 PM, said:



*semi-graphic

(skip to 2:05 for slo-mo)


Yup, exactly as I described. Of course, that short excerpt doesn't show any of the violence and harassment that took place during the hours building up to that incident, including that which targeted Meredith Hunter specifically. But it does show that Hunter "bursts" onto the scene in the video clip specifically because he was being pushed or punched already. He had been targeted for harassment by the Hells Angels all night, and in fear for his very life, had finally pulled his gun purely in self-defense.

His death was murder outright. Period. The only reason Alan Passaro (the HA who committed the actual murder) got away with it was because the HAs had better lawyers.

B)
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#38 User is offline   oki 

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Posted 09 November 2018 - 01:47 PM

View PostLadybird, on 09 November 2018 - 01:14 PM, said:

Did you read the article? People that knew him said he had problems before joining the military.

I mentioned the guns and country part because some are saying he was an advocate of gun control and that's why he did it. Seems like a contradiction.


Lot's of people have various problems before joining the military. Pretty much everything you can possibly imagine and then some.
For many it's an escape from those problems, a chance to start a new life become something much better and be a part of something much bigger.
This whole mentality of they should have never let him join is utter B.S. It's what happens AFTER a person who has issues leaves service which is the main problem. Stop doping people to the gills and calling it mental health treatment, stop treating returning vets with disdain(some regions of the country are worse than others), and for God sake's ALL PEOPLE with serious issues need to be of the street. This idea of to dangerous to own a gun and they should have one is fine and dandy, but no one ever wants to stop and think that if someone is so dangerous they can't be trusted with a firearm they sure as hell can find many other ways to kill and maim, often with equal or more devastating effects.

If this monster was an advocate for Gun control it would probably be out by know. One very interesting tid bit is we know what weapon he used, that he had at least one extended magazine, the names of all the innocent souls lost, but of coarse not one word about what if any mental health services he received. On and on about he had PTSD, the cops had been called but not one word about meds or treatment. Funny how that works, isn't it?
Maybe just maybe it isn't a guns problem but a meds one? Guns have been available since even before we where a nation but mass shootings like this didn't seem to be a regular occurrence until a couple years after the mass closure of Insane Asylums and all the 'wonder drugs' appearing in mass on Doctors shelves. Do you think that is a co incidence? We have had Gun Loving Patriots since our founding. Like I said, these types are who you want in the armed forces. Not some panty weight, limp 'wrist', big city type, who doesn't know his ass from a fox hole.

You need killers not choir boys. Other funny thing is why didn't we have this happening in the years after WWI, WWII, Korea, or even Vietnam?
Did those guys not see and have to do terrible terrible things as well? Really begs the question what's changed, doesn't it? What fundamental thing is different? What are doing for or should I say TO these guys and gals know that we weren't then to make any act in such a fashion?
Like I have said before though, don't expect the news at nine to ever do a story talking about the effects of any of this stuff. Just wait until the next commercial break and you'll understand why it ain't gonna' happen.

Oki
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#39 User is offline   oki 

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Posted 09 November 2018 - 02:11 PM

View PostMontyPython, on 09 November 2018 - 01:28 PM, said:

Yup, exactly as I described. Of course, that short excerpt doesn't show any of the violence and harassment that took place during the hours building up to that incident, including that which targeted Meredith Hunter specifically. But it does show that Hunter "bursts" onto the scene in the video clip specifically because he was being pushed or punched already. He had been targeted for harassment by the Hells Angels all night, and in fear for his very life, had finally pulled his gun purely in self-defense.

His death was murder outright. Period. The only reason Alan Passaro (the HA who committed the actual murder) got away with it was because the HAs had better lawyers.

B)



Thanks for the info. Ironic in a way that know days at least most clubs and members try to keep a low profile and not draw attention. Bad for image, bad for business and un needed/wanted attention from the cops and general public. Gonna' have to guess that there where some rather interesting 'conversations' between the guys at the show and the higher ups after this.

Oki
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#40 User is offline   MontyPython 

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Posted 09 November 2018 - 02:35 PM

View Postoki, on 09 November 2018 - 02:11 PM, said:

Thanks for the info. Ironic in a way that know days at least most clubs and members try to keep a low profile and not draw attention. Bad for image, bad for business and un needed/wanted attention from the cops and general public. Gonna' have to guess that there where some rather interesting 'conversations' between the guys at the show and the higher ups after this.

Oki


That entire show was an out-of-control debacle. If you ever get the chance to see the whole movie "Gimme Shelter" you'll see what a disaster it was from beginning to end. In the rush to set up this free concert they didn't have an adequate stage, adequate facilities like bathrooms or washing areas, no food, no medical staff, no professional security, etc etc etc. Just a bunch of drunk Hells Angels beating everybody up including band members (Marty Balin of the Jefferson Airplane, for example, got knocked out right on stage.)

The area in front of the stage was like a war zone. The whole thing was a catastrophe waiting to happen, and happen it did. Meredith Hunter's death wasn't the only death, it was just the one that got all the attention because it was a murder. But three other people died there too; one drowned in an abandoned irrigation ditch, and two by hit-and-run accident. And that doesn't begin to cover all the injuries, beatings, cuts, broken bones, rapes, etc, plus robberies, stolen cars, and more.

"Disaster" just doesn't cover it.

B)
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