[searcher]

Dean Adam Smithee, on 15 November 2019 - 02:06 PM, said:

Actually, she can't even do that now. Having joined ISIS, she's now subject to 8 USC §1424. Prohibition upon the naturalization of persons opposed to government or law, or who favor totalitarian forms of government:

(a) Notwithstanding the provisions of section 405(B ) of this Act, no person shall hereafter be naturalized as a citizen of the United States-

(1)...

(2)...

(3)...

(4) who advocates or teaches or who is a member of or affiliated with any organization that advocates or teaches (A) the overthrow by force or violence or other unconstitutional means of the Government of the United States or of all forms of law; or (B ) the duty, necessity, or propriety of the unlawful assaulting or killing of any officer or officers (either of specific individuals or of officers generally) of the Government of the United States or of any other organized government because of his or their official character; or (C ) the unlawful damage, injury, or destruction of property; or (D) sabotage; or...

OK. I don't really care about her, but I mostly believe in second chances for most things. Guess I know too many folks who have done their prison time, got out and never got into any trouble again.

Mark

[Dean Adam Smithee]

searcher, on 15 November 2019 - 03:31 PM, said:

OK. I don't really care about her, but I mostly believe in second chances for most things. Guess I know too many folks who have done their prison time, got out and never got into any trouble again.

Mark

Yeah, I'll buy that. Especially when qualified with the words "mostly" and "most" vis-a-vis second chances. But I'd like to see some time pass.

Ellie Hall of Buzzfeed has apparently been watching this girl since Hoda Muthana first went over there and ponders the question of forgiveness in the story An Alabama “ISIS Bride” Wants To Come Home. Can We Forgive Her Horrifying Social Media Posts? and points out that she was still posting pro-ISIS stuff as recently as September 2017. Personally, two years since then is not sufficient to persuade me that her "repudiation" of ISIS is legit and heartfelt rather than merely for convenience. Ask me again in maybe 10 or 20 years? During which time she could proactively demonstrate that the "ISIS" Hoda Muthana is no longer the "real" Hoda Muthana?

[oki]

Dean Adam Smithee, on 15 November 2019 - 04:13 PM, said:

Yeah, I'll buy that. Especially when qualified with the words "mostly" and "most" vis-a-vis second chances. But I'd like to see some time pass.

Ellie Hall of Buzzfeed has apparently been watching this girl since Hoda Muthana first went over there and ponders the question of forgiveness in the story An Alabama “ISIS Bride” Wants To Come Home. Can We Forgive Her Horrifying Social Media Posts? and points out that she was still posting pro-ISIS stuff as recently as September 2017. Personally, two years since then is not sufficient to persuade me that her "repudiation" of ISIS is legit and heartfelt rather than merely for convenience. Ask me again in maybe 10 or 20 years? During which time she could proactively demonstrate that the "ISIS" Hoda Muthana is no longer the "real" Hoda Muthana?

I'll be convinced when or if either of them can walk up and cap one of these ISIS sons a b$tches point blank.

[searcher]

Dean Adam Smithee, on 15 November 2019 - 04:13 PM, said:

Yeah, I'll buy that. Especially when qualified with the words "mostly" and "most" vis-a-vis second chances. But I'd like to see some time pass.

Ellie Hall of Buzzfeed has apparently been watching this girl since Hoda Muthana first went over there and ponders the question of forgiveness in the story An Alabama “ISIS Bride” Wants To Come Home. Can We Forgive Her Horrifying Social Media Posts? and points out that she was still posting pro-ISIS stuff as recently as September 2017. Personally, two years since then is not sufficient to persuade me that her "repudiation" of ISIS is legit and heartfelt rather than merely for convenience. Ask me again in maybe 10 or 20 years? During which time she could proactively demonstrate that the "ISIS" Hoda Muthana is no longer the "real" Hoda Muthana?

I agree. I don't think she should be allowed in any time soon. She would have to convince folks who do this for a living, and demonstrate over a period of time she's truly sorry. And be subject to regular check-ins after being allowed in as well. Screw up again like that and out for good.

Mark

[Taggart Transcontinental]

searcher, on 15 November 2019 - 05:00 PM, said:

I agree. I don't think she should be allowed in any time soon. She would have to convince folks who do this for a living, and demonstrate over a period of time she's truly sorry. And be subject to regular check-ins after being allowed in as well. Screw up again like that and out for good.

Mark

So you wouldn't mind her hiding her radicalization and coming in at a later day to do damage then? Sorry she's cast her dice and now she gets to move those mice. That's her screw up, not yours and not mine. Oh and no one is entitled to come to the US and become a citizen. It is a privilege and there are plenty of good people out there trying to naturalize, so she can stay where she is or move to Yemen and have a wonderful life there.

[Howsithangin]

Taggart Transcontinental, on 15 November 2019 - 06:46 PM, said:

So you wouldn't mind her hiding her radicalization and coming in at a later day to do damage then? Sorry she's cast her dice and now she gets to move those mice. That's her screw up, not yours and not mine. Oh and no one is entitled to come to the US and become a citizen. It is a privilege and there are plenty of good people out there trying to naturalize, so she can stay where she is or move to Yemen and have a wonderful life there.

As usual, I find you're spot on :thumbsup:

This post has been edited by Howsithangin: 15 November 2019 - 07:04 PM

[searcher]

Taggart Transcontinental, on 15 November 2019 - 06:46 PM, said:

So you wouldn't mind her hiding her radicalization and coming in at a later day to do damage then? Sorry she's cast her dice and now she gets to move those mice. That's her screw up, not yours and not mine. Oh and no one is entitled to come to the US and become a citizen. It is a privilege and there are plenty of good people out there trying to naturalize, so she can stay where she is or move to Yemen and have a wonderful life there.

Nope.I'm saying anyone, especially younger folks can get started on a wrong road. And there can be genuine change. I've seen it. And, to an extent lived it. If she wants back in she should be watched real close where she is for some time. Down the road if she can show remorse and reform, sure. Still watch her but give her a chance. I got one, by cops who knew I wasn't real bad..yet..and I've turned out sorta OK.

Mark

[gravelrash]

She can make her way back to the United States if she learns the words to "O Canada" and obtains a CDL.

[Dean Adam Smithee]

Taggart Transcontinental, on 15 November 2019 - 06:46 PM, said:

So you wouldn't mind her hiding her radicalization and coming in at a later day to do damage then? Sorry she's cast her dice and now she gets to move those mice. That's her screw up, not yours and not mine. Oh and no one is entitled to come to the US and become a citizen. It is a privilege and there are plenty of good people out there trying to naturalize, so she can stay where she is or move to Yemen and have a wonderful life there.

I just can't rule out that - IF she's genuinely contrite/changed AND a sufficient amount of time passes (10 yrs? (20 yrs?) AND she stays in the ME and keeps her ear to the ground, there *MAY* come some future date when she can, over an extended period of time, prove her usefulness to us sufficient to "buy" her way back in.

I would use dealing with former Nazis post-WWII as an example of how the USA can "forgive" former enemies... UP TO a point. Generally, we could forgive someone who was 'merely' a soldier against and (Within the bounds of "Nuremburg") merely following orders or policies; Those who gave the orders or set the policies were a different matter, as were those who took a willing part in atrocities... but even then we could make an exception IF the person was useful enough to us. I have no heartburn over that. Two examples that come to mind are former nazi general Rheinhard Gehlen later recruited by the US Army's G-2 intelligence section during the cold war, and Werner von Braun who had in the early war years been an Untersturmführer in the SS and a Nazi party member.

Heck, one of my circle of friends when I lived in Orlando in the '80s/'90s was "German John" (then in his '60s), who back in his teens/twenties had been "Hitler Youth" and then later German Army. By the time I knew him, he'd been an upstanding US citizen for as long as anyone around could remember: I'm willing to forgive what had transpired some 40-50 years prior.

[grimreefer]

Taggart Transcontinental, on 15 November 2019 - 06:46 PM, said:

<SNIP>
Sorry she's cast her dice and now she gets to move those mice. That's her screw up, not yours and not mine. Oh and no one is entitled to come to the US and become a citizen. It is a privilege and there are plenty of good people out there trying to naturalize, so she can stay where she is or move to Yemen and have a wonderful life there.

This.

[Loch Gates]

Even if she's sorry for what she did the judge made the correct decision.

[JerryL]

searcher, on 15 November 2019 - 05:00 PM, said:

I agree. I don't think she should be allowed in any time soon. She would have to convince folks who do this for a living, and demonstrate over a period of time she's truly sorry. And be subject to regular check-ins after being allowed in as well. Screw up again like that and out for good.

Mark

Sorry, I do not agree. When you leave the US to go fight against humanity with a terrorist organization and you call for violence against the citizens of the country you left, you burned any second chances you had. Couple that with her not even being a US citizen, there is absolutely no reason to ever allow her to return to the United States.

She is a non-issue for our country. She has no right to come to the US, at all. Let her go to Yemen.

Just like with all the illegals...we can't be responsible for everyone and there is no right to come to the US.

[Taggart Transcontinental]

searcher, on 15 November 2019 - 07:43 PM, said:

Nope.I'm saying anyone, especially younger folks can get started on a wrong road. And there can be genuine change. I've seen it. And, to an extent lived it. If she wants back in she should be watched real close where she is for some time. Down the road if she can show remorse and reform, sure. Still watch her but give her a chance. I got one, by cops who knew I wasn't real bad..yet..and I've turned out sorta OK.

Mark

Yeah? And I am saying that someone that believes in the VIOLENT overthrow of a nation and imposing a radical religion on anyone deserves to live with their decisions. I don't care how YOUNG she was, this kind of crap belief is for life. I do not want her getting sad over here, and deciding to strap a bomb on herself and detonate a bunch of good people in a mall simply because she believes she should do it. There is no remorse for her decision. Only remorse for her situation. They are different things.

[Taggart Transcontinental]

Dean Adam Smithee, on 15 November 2019 - 09:59 PM, said:

I just can't rule out that - IF she's genuinely contrite/changed AND a sufficient amount of time passes (10 yrs? (20 yrs?) AND she stays in the ME and keeps her ear to the ground, there *MAY* come some future date when she can, over an extended period of time, prove her usefulness to us sufficient to "buy" her way back in.

I would use dealing with former Nazis post-WWII as an example of how the USA can "forgive" former enemies... UP TO a point. Generally, we could forgive someone who was 'merely' a soldier against and (Within the bounds of "Nuremburg") merely following orders or policies; Those who gave the orders or set the policies were a different matter, as were those who took a willing part in atrocities... but even then we could make an exception IF the person was useful enough to us. I have no heartburn over that. Two examples that come to mind are former nazi general Rheinhard Gehlen later recruited by the US Army's G-2 intelligence section during the cold war, and Werner von Braun who had in the early war years been an Untersturmführer in the SS and a Nazi party member.

Heck, one of my circle of friends when I lived in Orlando in the '80s/'90s was "German John" (then in his '60s), who back in his teens/twenties had been "Hitler Youth" and then later German Army. By the time I knew him, he'd been an upstanding US citizen for as long as anyone around could remember: I'm willing to forgive what had transpired some 40-50 years prior.

And who would you be happy to not take into the US in her place? We have a finite amount of people authorized into the nation annually. People wait for decades to come here. They do not swear allegiance to a terror organization, and they do not wage war against a people based on religion. Which one of those millions deserves to wait another year simply because she was here once?

Remember there is always an opportunity cost for accepting one person over another. This would be like hiring a toxic employee over someone else. Or hiring Kapernick over some young person just out of college so you can represent your social justice. We lose someone potentially good in lieu of someone we know already called for the destruction of our nation. Why sign up for that?

This post has been edited by Taggart Transcontinental: 21 November 2019 - 12:42 PM

[MontyPython]

With apologies to Herman's Hermits:

She's a must to avoid
A complete impossibility
She's a must to avoid
Better take it from me

...take my advice, play it smart
She's nothin' but trouble
Better cut out on the double

:yes:

[Dean Adam Smithee]

Taggart Transcontinental, on 21 November 2019 - 12:39 PM, said:

And who would you be happy to not take into the US in her place? We have a finite amount of people authorized into the nation annually. People wait for decades to come here. They do not swear allegiance to a terror organization, and they do not wage war against a people based on religion. Which one of those millions deserves to wait another year simply because she was here once?

Remember there is always an opportunity cost for accepting one person over another. This would be like hiring a toxic employee over someone else. Or hiring Kapernick over some young person just out of college so you can represent your social justice. We lose someone potentially good in lieu of someone we know already called for the destruction of our nation. Why sign up for that?

JUST PURELY HYPOTHETICAL, but it would depend on her 'value' to us at the time. She's was with ISIS for, what, 3 or 4 years? She has likely has seen things and knows things that would be of value *IF* she could be 'turned' and *IF* she could then be believed (Two very big 'if's).

I've been in the Middle East enough to know one thing: When it comes to getting first-hand "inside" knowledge of organizations like ISIS, Al Qaeda, Hezbollah, Hamas, etc., our capabilities have historically ranged from 'non-existant' to 'laughable'. YES, our Sigint/Elint/etc capabilities are second to none (I've posted on this elsewhere) but that's never enough even though we sometimes get a bit 'lazy' and start thinking that's the 'all'. It's one thing to have all the pieces of the puzzle in front of you, gathered via technical means; it's quite another to know how to fit the pieces together into a 'whole' and the ivy-league ivory-tower 'elites' have for the past several decades proven themselves horrifyingly inept at it. They comes a point where you NEED the inside knowledge that can only be gained from unsavory characters that you would otherwise never invite over for Sunday brunch. She *MAY* be such a person. At the very least, if I were in position to do so, I'd at least interview her and/or put out some feelers and see if there's at least a possibility here.

Who would I 'trade' for her? I dunno, but I'm sure the USA has made worse trades. Heck, how many Mafia goons, etc, have we let off the hook just because they had knowledge that was strategically 'valuable' to us?

[zurg]

What’s wrong with just saying no? There are so many people from so many countries that want to come to the US.

Can we stop pretending that the US is the best country for *everybody*? It won’t be. You’ll need to *want* to be a part of America rather than to be part of her opposition to come live here.

Bitch doesn’t like us anyway. That’s so clear. Why bring her back? How on earth would that help either her or us? Let’s just agree to stay separated, huh?

This post has been edited by zurg: 21 November 2019 - 06:01 PM

[Dean Adam Smithee]

zurg, on 21 November 2019 - 06:01 PM, said:

What’s wrong with just saying no? There are so many people from so many countries that want to come to the US.

Can we stop pretending that the US is the best country for *everybody*? It won’t be. You’ll need to *want* to be a part of America rather than to be part of her opposition to come live here.

Bitch doesn’t like us anyway. That’s so clear. Why bring her back? How on earth would that help either her or us? Let’s just agree to stay separated, huh?

I don't think she's "entitled" to come back. Not by any stretch. Don't get me wrong on this. But I'd be willing to "allow" her back *IF* she flips and becomes a provable "asset".

[MontyPython]

Dean Adam Smithee, on 21 November 2019 - 06:22 PM, said:

I don't think she's "entitled" to come back. Not by any stretch. Don't get me wrong on this. But I'd be willing to "allow" her back *IF* she flips and becomes a provable "asset".

Sure, but it's that "provable" part that matters. Don't forget, Benedict Arnold was once a "provable asset" to America.

:coolshades:

[Dean Adam Smithee]

MontyPython, on 21 November 2019 - 07:09 PM, said:

Sure, but it's that "provable" part that matters. Don't forget, Benedict Arnold was once a "provable asset" to America.

:coolshades:

Yes, that's why as posted earlier in the thread, I'd like to see it stand the test of time.

Let her help us NOW while whatever she knows is still timely. Then put it in her file that she DID help us. An immigration officer looks at the file in 2029 or 2039 and sees that she HAD helped us in the day, and stamps "approved"? I would not be opposed.

Meantime, there's plenty to do in the ME (for OUR side, of course). Sitting out the next 10 years or so is not THAT big of a deal.

EtA: Sucks that all the TLAs are ignoring this potential gift on a silver platter Heck, send ME back over there and let me "work it"; I can bring her "in from the cold", so to speak.

If not ME then someone, anyone. Tempus is fugiting.

This post has been edited by Dean Adam Smithee: 21 November 2019 - 10:11 PM