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#1 User is offline   Liz 

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Posted 30 March 2017 - 03:29 AM

What the Jim Webb Debacle in Annapolis Is Teaching the Military

The Washington Free Beacon
BY: Aaron MacLean
March 29, 2017 12:26 pm

Excerpt:

Imagine you are a young midshipman at the U.S. Naval Academy processing the news that Jim Webb—Annapolis class of '68, recipient of the Navy Cross, former senator and secretary of the Navy, former member of the Annapolis faculty, bestselling novelist and acclaimed journalist—has been forced by political pressure to decline an award for distinguished alumni at your school this week.

The most widely cited reason for his political toxicity is an article he wrote in 1979 (side note: almost forty years ago!) in Washingtonian Magazine entitled "Women Can't Fight." Never mind that he has apologized for both the vivid language of his youth and the ways in which the article made life difficult for women already in the service. ("Clearly, if I had been a more mature individual, there are things that I would not have said in that magazine article. To the extent that this article subjected women at the Academy or the armed forces to undue hardship, I remain profoundly sorry.") Never mind the fact that Webb was channeling the beliefs of the vast majority of his fellow infantrymen, if in somewhat impolitic language—or that even today, the vast majority of Marines of all grades oppose the inclusion of women in combat units. Never mind that in 1987, as secretary of the Navy, Webb opened a tremendous number of new positions in the service to women. Most of all, never mind that as of December 2015, combat units were all opened to women by order of then-Secretary of Defense Carter, overriding the objections of the Marine Corps (though not of the Army).

In other words, the proponents of including women in combat units have won. But, as the case of Webb shows, that's not enough. You have to salt the fields.

*snip*

Just as interesting is how Webb describes the manner in which pressure was applied. He was told "that my presence at the ceremony would likely mar the otherwise celebratory nature of that special day" in "conversations with the Alumni Association, including information passed down from top Navy leadership in the Pentagon…"

A nation gets the military leadership it deserves. America's future military leaders are learning some important lessons this week—just not the ones we should want.

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#2 User is online   JerryL 

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Posted 30 March 2017 - 03:49 AM

View PostLiz, on 30 March 2017 - 03:29 AM, said:

What the Jim Webb Debacle in Annapolis Is Teaching the Military

The Washington Free Beacon
BY: Aaron MacLean
March 29, 2017 12:26 pm

Excerpt:

Imagine you are a young midshipman at the U.S. Naval Academy processing the news that Jim Webb—Annapolis class of '68, recipient of the Navy Cross, former senator and secretary of the Navy, former member of the Annapolis faculty, bestselling novelist and acclaimed journalist—has been forced by political pressure to decline an award for distinguished alumni at your school this week.

The most widely cited reason for his political toxicity is an article he wrote in 1979 (side note: almost forty years ago!) in Washingtonian Magazine entitled "Women Can't Fight." Never mind that he has apologized for both the vivid language of his youth and the ways in which the article made life difficult for women already in the service. ("Clearly, if I had been a more mature individual, there are things that I would not have said in that magazine article. To the extent that this article subjected women at the Academy or the armed forces to undue hardship, I remain profoundly sorry.") Never mind the fact that Webb was channeling the beliefs of the vast majority of his fellow infantrymen, if in somewhat impolitic language—or that even today, the vast majority of Marines of all grades oppose the inclusion of women in combat units. Never mind that in 1987, as secretary of the Navy, Webb opened a tremendous number of new positions in the service to women. Most of all, never mind that as of December 2015, combat units were all opened to women by order of then-Secretary of Defense Carter, overriding the objections of the Marine Corps (though not of the Army).

In other words, the proponents of including women in combat units have won. But, as the case of Webb shows, that's not enough. You have to salt the fields.

*snip*

Just as interesting is how Webb describes the manner in which pressure was applied. He was told "that my presence at the ceremony would likely mar the otherwise celebratory nature of that special day" in "conversations with the Alumni Association, including information passed down from top Navy leadership in the Pentagon…"

A nation gets the military leadership it deserves. America's future military leaders are learning some important lessons this week—just not the ones we should want.

Link

I am sooooo glad I am retired from Navy. It has become unrecognizable. You can give Barrack Obama and Chelsea Clinton awards for literally NOTHING, but James Webb (a Democrat, no less), has to be sacrificed at the altar of PC because of something he said 40 years ago which was mainstream thought at the time.

Screw the Naval Academy.
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#3 User is offline   Taggart Transcontinental 

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Posted 30 March 2017 - 06:33 AM

Now, Contrast this article that was written with the perspective of his time and Bernie Sander's article's on raping women. One is lionized as a leader the other ostracized. What's wrong with our nation?
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#4 User is online   JerryL 

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Posted 30 March 2017 - 07:15 AM

View PostTaggart Transcontinental, on 30 March 2017 - 06:33 AM, said:

Now, Contrast this article that was written with the perspective of his time and Bernie Sander's article's on raping women. One is lionized as a leader the other ostracized. What's wrong with our nation?

That and Robert Byrd "apologized" for being a Klan leader and was virtually canonized by the Dems. All was forgiven like he was never even in the Klan.

All of them are Dems. My problem is I look for logic where there is none. Leftists have no logic, only what they "feel" at this precise moment in time. It doesn't even matter if they "felt" something different 30 seconds ago.

This post has been edited by JerryL: 30 March 2017 - 07:16 AM

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#5 User is offline   LongKnife 

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Posted 30 March 2017 - 07:32 AM

What bothers me is that he is declining the award because of the possibility of a disruptive protest. So what? Declining the award sends a much worse message than a few barking cows that could be hauled off in a few minutes. It sounds like only a few females objected to him receiving the award. Females that should be thanking him.
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#6 User is offline   oki 

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Posted 30 March 2017 - 08:16 AM

View PostJerryL, on 30 March 2017 - 07:15 AM, said:

That and Robert Byrd "apologized" for being a Klan leader and was virtually canonized by the Dems. All was forgiven like he was never even in the Klan.

All of them are Dems. My problem is I look for logic where there is none. Leftists have no logic, only what they "feel" at this precise moment in time. It doesn't even matter if they "felt" something different 30 seconds ago.



Oh come on know it's not like he left a mistress(rumored to be pregnant) to drown in a car while he was still married. That would have been really really bad a Ted Kennedy been called an accident. Or had numerous woman come forward accusing you of rape while you where a governor and even president, or found Child Porn on your PC, oh no this is really bad.

Per woman in combat. Yeah, a few would be alright, BUT, anyone who has served one day will tell you everything is designed for the lowest common denominator. Meaning EVERYONE has to be effective and capable not some, not most, but everyone. It isn't just being able to shoot straight, it's the physical demands on the body as well as the lack of proper hygiene. I wish this wasn't the case, that Nature is what it isn't, but, unfortunately it's reality. I say that because I knew a number of ladies who could out shoot most of the men, where mentally far more tougher, meaner, and nastier then many of the guys coming out of a certain co-ed Basic Training Base I won't name at this time.

But, as I said study after study after study and real world experience proved this. It's enough to make a person cry because you want your best people in mud and the blood when the sh$t hits the fan, but, you have to be realistic and understand that there is more to being a Soldier then just shooting.

Oki


Oki
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#7 User is offline   Dean Adam Smithee 

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Posted 30 March 2017 - 08:20 AM

View PostTaggart Transcontinental, on 30 March 2017 - 06:33 AM, said:

Now, Contrast this article that was written with the perspective of his time and Bernie Sander's article's on raping women. One is lionized as a leader the other ostracized. What's wrong with our nation?


https://g.christianbook.com/g/ebooks/covers/f450/5/573112_f450.jpg

In the 20+ years since Robert Bork wrote that in '96, it's become even MORE true.
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#8 User is offline   USNRETWIFE 

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Posted 30 March 2017 - 08:47 AM

View PostJerryL, on 30 March 2017 - 03:49 AM, said:

I am sooooo glad I am retired from Navy. It has become unrecognizable. You can give Barrack Obama and Chelsea Clinton awards for literally NOTHING, but James Webb (a Democrat, no less), has to be sacrificed at the altar of PC because of something he said 40 years ago which was mainstream thought at the time.

Screw the Naval Academy.


My husband has said the same so many times. He even tried to talk our grandson out of the Army. Now, after two enlistments, our grandson is thinking seriously of waving bye bye to military service.
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#9 User is offline   vectorsrule 

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Posted 30 March 2017 - 09:09 AM

Let me tell you about women in the Military. Young single women get pregnant and quit. How do I know? I was an Army Company Commander with 30% women in my unit.

100% of my unmarried females became pregnant, they were then treated as if they had "combat wounds" and sooner or later could not do their jobs that a Man had to pick up.
It is 11% Military wide. So at the beginning of every battle one out of ten soldiers wont be able to fight. Women don't have the killer instinct, they get sick more often, they quit more often. My Navy buddies tell me when a women gets pregnant they send her off the ship back home to safety and comfort. They can't say a word and keep their jobs. We had female truck drivers who couldn't change a tire because they lacked the strength. This is how stupid and out of hand it has gotten.

Political correctness will kill this country. IT IS ABSURD to think a women can stand up to a man in combat. Do you see it in MMA? No, how about the NFL? No.

Now, I do believe women should serve and be drafted into non-combat roles? The young females that reported to me appeared to be smarter, wiser, more disciplined than the males. They made great Soldiers, just not great front line soldiers.

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#10 User is offline   oki 

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Posted 30 March 2017 - 10:06 AM

View Postvectorsrule, on 30 March 2017 - 09:09 AM, said:

Let me tell you about women in the Military. Young single women get pregnant and quit. How do I know? I was an Army Company Commander with 30% women in my unit.

100% of my unmarried females became pregnant, they were then treated as if they had "combat wounds" and sooner or later could not do their jobs that a Man had to pick up.
It is 11% Military wide. So at the beginning of every battle one out of ten soldiers wont be able to fight. Women don't have the killer instinct, they get sick more often, they quit more often. My Navy buddies tell me when a women gets pregnant they send her off the ship back home to safety and comfort. They can't say a word and keep their jobs. We had female truck drivers who couldn't change a tire because they lacked the strength. This is how stupid and out of hand it has gotten.

Political correctness will kill this country. IT IS ABSURD to think a women can stand up to a man in combat. Do you see it in MMA? No, how about the NFL? No.

Now, I do believe women should serve and be drafted into non-combat roles? The young females that reported to me appeared to be smarter, wiser, more disciplined than the males. They made great Soldiers, just not great front line soldiers.



You also don't see it in the N.B.A., M.L.B., or ANY OTHER PRO SPORT FOR THAT MATTER. But yet, we are supposed to think that in combat it's a Okay?
Can someone please explain this to me?

My own experience.. the first female Soldiers I worked with at Sill was a couple one of the higher level Mechanics, and somehow the Unit Re Enlistment N.C.O. had a female assistant for a time. That worked out real well.... The mechanic she was alright. She hated the fact that she wasn't as strong as the guys but she was quite good none the less and was trying to strength train to make up the difference as best she could. Mud, dirt grime, didn't bother her one bit. But, I think even she said it was very difficult for her to keep up and that Hygeine was especially hard during field excercises. But, she wasn't the type to complain.

The 'assistant' was a total freaken' princess who I think was only there for a short time due to certain reasons.
Fast forward a couple years to Fort Gordon Georgia when I re classed from Artillery to Communications. O my f'ng God, the newbies who where largely coming from a certain Co-ed basic at a certain Camp not to far away(cough cough Jackson) where as a rule awful. Lack of discipline, lack of motivation many could barely pass P.T. tests. I remember telling my mom if we went to war I would probably shoot half of them first because they would get me killed! Absolutely no comparison to the guys coming from the non co-ed basics at Leonardwood, or Sill.

Hell, I was even hearing stories from the handful of newbies whom I thought where alright about how they knew of pregnancies in Basic F'ng training!
I also remember a number of pregnancies at Gordon while I was re classing there as well. Almost all between newbies.
Okinawa, I think in the 6 years I was there I can count on one hand the number of females who DIDN'T get pregnant. As we where non deployable fixed station it wasn't as much an issue, but non the less every time their was a surprise someone had to pick up the slack for at least a couple months, accommodations made etc etc etc etc. And this was in as close to a 9 -5 environment you'll get in the Army.

When I say surprise I mean unplanned pregnancy. As it was a non hardship tour and people where there with families it's expected that kids will be made. But, the RESPONSIBLE PEOPLE at least let supervisors know well ahead of time that they where starting families worked with peers to cover duties and obligations and so on. Vs the I'm pregnant can't do this can't do that, so sorry which was the norm.

Let's see one of the female Soldiers who left due to Alcoholism, remember her well. Very sad case.
The two female captains we had.
One of the E-6's at Battalion
And one of the ladies in my immediate group.

In a unit which had about 100 soldiers with about 30-40 being female that's all I can remember as not getting pregnant during my whole six years there.
Per the E-6 in the Battalion she was older and already had children, so she was done(but her own words).
I knew ladies who had already had kids while they where still in training, or had gotten pregnant in training and again while in Okinawa.
For a fact I know the training pregnancies where unplanned, but to their credit I think they where married when they got pregnant in Okinawa.

It would be wrong, to tell people of either gender your in the Military you can't start a family. BUT, at the same time when your in a freaken' combat unit you have to have the personal responsibility to not due things which jeopardize unit effectiveness. Every single branch of the military already has huge readiness issues due to pregnancies as it is, and this is in support type units, and know they think it won't be exaggerated with mixed combat units? It would be wrong for me to lay the fault of this at the females solely, it takes two to make a baby.

But, short of removing woman from the military outright there a few choices here.
Making unplanned pregnancies punishable under U.C.M.J. for both the male and female(and this would definitely lead to either abortions or false rape charges). Or requiring the use of birth control. I despise the idea of needing a commanders permission to have a kid or get married, but, what the hell is the solution?

Sorry for the long winded rambling, but like yourself I saw the effects first hand as well.

Oki
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#11 User is offline   Ladybird 

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Posted 30 March 2017 - 10:20 AM

Maybe the women in combat roles should get a shot of depo-provera along with their vaccines.
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#12 User is offline   oki 

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Posted 30 March 2017 - 11:13 AM

View PostLadybird, on 30 March 2017 - 10:20 AM, said:

Maybe the women in combat roles should get a shot of depo-provera along with their vaccines.



Pregnancies is only part of the issue, a big one, but not the only one. It's also, strength, injury, as well as hygiene related.
As I stated before I have known a number of ladies who I would have chosen to have my back over any number of males should sh$t have hit the fan.
BUT, sadly, most ladies cannot handle the same amount of physical stress that the average male can. Add in issues of Hygiene(or to simply put lack of it) and it's a recipe for disaster. Imagine 30 days without a shower, or a proper toilet, at best baby wipes or maybe dumping a bottle of water on your head and using a towel and bar of soap every couple of days if the situation permits.

Or, being in a situation where a Helicopter drops a crate of once a month and in it are the supplies vital for your survival. Think top of a mountain. Everything in that case is of use. Food, ammo, maybe a change of clothes and it's just enough for each person to survive on. What's going to go in order to make room for 'other things'? Will it be some of the ammo? Some of the food? Each Soldier having to sacrifice a change of clothing?

Speaking from experience my first job was that of a 13M(Mike) M.L.R.S.(Multiple Launch Crew Member). As such you either operated a Hemmtt(Heavy Expanded Mobility Tactical Truck) http://olive-drab.co..._hemtt_m985.php (what I did) or a crew member on the M.L.R.S. launcher.
http://www.army-tech.../projects/mlrs/ (what I also was trained to do).

One can say all you are doing is driving a truck or a 'tank' and maybe pushing a few buttons here and there.
That's only the appearance. Ever change a tire that weighs about 500 pounds? How about change a link in the track of one of the M.L.R.S./M270/Launchers? Those are some of the most basic skills and requirements needed. Even we as men had a hell of a time doing those tasks. To believe that the average female soldier could accomplish this much less with the same efficiency is thinking akin to Suicide. This is what gets people killed.
I don't doubt for a minute there are woman who can do it, and probably even do it better then the average male soldier. BUT, they are the exception and not the norm. Training, doctrines, and missions are designed and executed to either either the lowest Soldiers abilities or the average. That means EVERYONE must be able to perform to a certain minimum day in and day out.

As someone who has to some lesser degree been there and done that it kills me to say this, but sorry, due to mother nature woman who are as physically capable as men are the exception and not the norm. You cannot operate any military based on exceptions, you operate them based on either the lowest or the average.

Oki
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#13 User is offline   vectorsrule 

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Posted 30 March 2017 - 11:36 AM

View PostLadybird, on 30 March 2017 - 10:20 AM, said:

Maybe the women in combat roles should get a shot of depo-provera along with their vaccines.


It's a good idea, but think of the civil rights lawsuites?
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#14 User is offline   vectorsrule 

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Posted 30 March 2017 - 11:40 AM

View Postoki, on 30 March 2017 - 11:13 AM, said:

Pregnancies is only part of the issue, a big one, but not the only one. It's also, strength, injury, as well as hygiene related.


Women get sick more
Women break down to physical stress more quickly
Women don't have the stamina men have
Women truck drivers could not only NOT change a tire, but if pregnant they are not allowed to change the used fluid(s) due to the toxicity to the fetus. SO WHAT GOOD ARE THEY!?

As I said, the PC culture will destroy this country.

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#15 User is offline   Taggart Transcontinental 

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Posted 30 March 2017 - 11:53 AM

View PostLadybird, on 30 March 2017 - 10:20 AM, said:

Maybe the women in combat roles should get a shot of depo-provera along with their vaccines.


Do you think you could go 30 - 45 days without a shower and little water in a desert environment? There was a major difference between women in a combat zone supporting the infantry and women in an infantry company. When we were in the beginning days of the fight infantry soldiers went months without a shower, the support agencies that had supply systems in place were capable of going and getting cleaned up faster. At one point a hospital ship had a maternity ward in Iraq. So that's also another issue.
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#16 User is offline   oki 

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Posted 30 March 2017 - 04:21 PM

View Postvectorsrule, on 30 March 2017 - 11:40 AM, said:

Women get sick more
Women break down to physical stress more quickly
Women don't have the stamina men have
Women truck drivers could not only NOT change a tire, but if pregnant they are not allowed to change the used fluid(s) due to the toxicity to the fetus. SO WHAT GOOD ARE THEY!?

As I said, the PC culture will destroy this country.




Funny in a way. To those who watch the movie a Few Good Men Col. Jessup was a total P.O.S. to those who have served in harms way or otherwise had to perform duties or jobs that where dangerous we won't call him a good man, or a great leader, but we do understand why he did it. That ALL MEMBERS MUST BE ABLE TO PULL THEIR OWN WEIGHT AND DO THEIR JOBS, anything less jeopardizes not just their lives but the lives of everyone else. There isn't always a well just find someone else to take their place clause, this isn't a 9 - 5 job where work can just be shuffled and divided up to everyone else in the department, when you need 10 $*&! swinging in the field to get the job done you need 10 $*&! swinging in the field. ALL OF THEM MUST BE ABLE TO DO THEIR JOBS. You of coarse understand this as do I, but obviously a hell of lot don't. Worse yet is know you have someone who not can't do their job, they need someone to damn near babysit them until they are 'evacuated' to a safe place.

Why is that those who have been there done that or at least trained for it understand things, but those who have no clue are the ones making the decisions?

Oki
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#17 User is offline   Howsithangin 

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Posted 30 March 2017 - 08:27 PM

What difference does it make, that was so long ago.

Oh wait, that only applies to Hillary & Barry. My bad
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