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#21 User is offline   Dean Adam Smithee 

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Posted 22 June 2019 - 04:50 PM

View PostMontyPython, on 22 June 2019 - 01:59 PM, said:

Fair enough I suppose, but my whole point/position hinges on consuming it. Does it taste different? Does it quench thirst better? Or worse? Does it still boil an egg? Can you make gravy with it? And so forth. To me the whole "bottled water" and/or "filtered water" phenomenon that has cropped up in the past couple decades is nothing short of a money-making hoax by those who sell bottled water and water filters.

:shrug:


Does it [soft water] taste different? YES, without a doubt. Not necessarily better or worse, but different.

Make a one cup of coffee or tea with hard water and one with soft and I GUARANTEE you can tell the difference. One will taste "right", the other won't and which one depends largely on what you're used to. There's a reason food and beverage plants spend $millions on water purification. Especially beverage plants. And VERY especially beer plants.

You know those ads for Coors Beer that mention "Rocky Mountain Spring Water"? They're not exactly lying, I suppose their water probably DOES originate in a spring or springs in the Rockies. But I've seen their water purification system; it would put most municipalities to shame. (And most municipalities SHOULD be put to shame by the private sector, but maybe a different topic). Likewise the Anheuser-Busch plant just north of there in Ft. Collins Co. Or, one of my favorite projects that I spent the better part of a year on in '00-01:

http://oi67.tinypic.com/2e1c08w.jpg

Start with municipal water. Soften it. Reverse Osmosis it. Then second stage of Reverse Osmosis. Then de-ionize it.

The goal is "consistency". You don't want a product to taste different because it came from a plant with a different water source, or maybe the water source for the same plant varies in quality from day to day. People WILL notice, so they spend $millions to get there. It's also about economics. Build your plant where it's most cost effective to produce the product and get it to market without, up to a point, having to worry too much about about the local water quality; people like me can engineer that out of the equation.
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#22 User is offline   Liz 

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Posted 22 June 2019 - 05:56 PM

We bought the filter when we moved from California to this rural valley. The tap water is full of sand and silt and God knows what else.

And when we first moved here, the city flatly acknowledged that it didn't test the water because they didn't know what to test for. And in a lame attempt to reassure the residents, they added that up til now, no one has ever complained. :shrug:
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#23 User is offline   searcher 

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Posted 22 June 2019 - 06:38 PM

Here in AZ where I we mostly drink bottled water. Get it by the gallon and I reuse the smaller bottles for a week or 3. As a kid in WA we had good water but a while back they changed sources and quality went way down. As a kid I would drink out of the river if the tide was mostly out. Seemed cleaner then.

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#24 User is offline   Oathtaker 

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Posted 22 June 2019 - 07:15 PM

View PostLiz, on 22 June 2019 - 05:56 PM, said:

We bought the filter when we moved from California to this rural valley. The tap water is full of sand and silt and God knows what else.

And when we first moved here, the city flatly acknowledged that it didn't test the water because they didn't know what to test for. And in a lame attempt to reassure the residents, they added that up til now, no one has ever complained. :shrug:


We have a well. We tested the water when we first bought the house years ago. The water tested out fine for what it was feasted which, was the usual turbidity, PH, nitrate, biological, and a couple of other things, I had it tested for chlorides as well it cost about $300 for everything if I remember correctly. Being a well I installed a dual gradient sediment filter right after the pressure tank itís a 50 micron in 5 micron out. I installed a RO system for drinking water. Thereís a tap at the kitchen sink and a line that goes to the fridge for ice and chilled water.

I did all this because with a well you never know when or if some bad constituents could infiltrate the well.

For Monty, my water has no taste itself. Just cold and refreshing.

I donít drink from anything plastic if at all possible. I use quart mason jars. I found a company that makes really nice insulated koozies that fit the jars. I have this weird thing about plastic. My coffee travel mugs are ceramic and all of our ďTupperwareĒ is glass.

Most bottled water like Deer Park that doesnít come from a municipal source is not regulated or tested to any degree. That makes me leery about drinking it. Well that and itís in a plastic bottle....
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#25 User is offline   MontyPython 

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Posted 22 June 2019 - 07:48 PM

View PostDean Adam Smithee, on 22 June 2019 - 04:50 PM, said:

Does it [soft water] taste different? YES, without a doubt. Not necessarily better or worse, but different.

Make a one cup of coffee or tea with hard water and one with soft and I GUARANTEE you can tell the difference. One will taste "right", the other won't and which one depends largely on what you're used to. There's a reason food and beverage plants spend $millions on water purification. Especially beverage plants. And VERY especially beer plants.

You know those ads for Coors Beer that mention "Rocky Mountain Spring Water"? They're not exactly lying, I suppose their water probably DOES originate in a spring or springs in the Rockies. But I've seen their water purification system; it would put most municipalities to shame. (And most municipalities SHOULD be put to shame by the private sector, but maybe a different topic). Likewise the Anheuser-Busch plant just north of there in Ft. Collins Co. Or, one of my favorite projects that I spent the better part of a year on in '00-01:

http://oi67.tinypic.com/2e1c08w.jpg

Start with municipal water. Soften it. Reverse Osmosis it. Then second stage of Reverse Osmosis. Then de-ionize it.

The goal is "consistency". You don't want a product to taste different because it came from a plant with a different water source, or maybe the water source for the same plant varies in quality from day to day. People WILL notice, so they spend $millions to get there. It's also about economics. Build your plant where it's most cost effective to produce the product and get it to market without, up to a point, having to worry too much about about the local water quality; people like me can engineer that out of the equation.


Well I can't pretend to know what difference it might make in the production of tea or coffee. I'm talking about the water itself. You know, drinking water. Water that you drink. I've never been able to taste any difference in water no matter where in the country I am. It's just water, and has no "taste" at all. Just plain old water.

As for beer, no point using worthless pisswater like Coors or Budweiser as examples, which all taste the same to a true beer lover like me anyway. Gimme a good stout or porter; You know, dark beer. Black beer. Beer you can slice and serve on a plate. Now that's beer, and I'm guessing the water makes very little difference. Coors and Budweiser just taste like water to me anyway.


View PostOathtaker, on 22 June 2019 - 07:15 PM, said:

For Monty, my water has no taste itself. Just cold and refreshing.


Exactly. I've never been able to "taste" water. It's just water, and as far as I'm concerned has no "taste" at all. No matter where in the country I happen to be.

B)
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#26 User is offline   Dean Adam Smithee 

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Posted 22 June 2019 - 07:51 PM

Here in Atlanta, I split it 4 ways.

For EMERGENCIES, 25 gallons of store-bought "purified water" in (10) 2.5 gallon jugs. I 'rotate' it by making it a point to once a year use up at least half and replace it, so that none is more than 2 YO. Yeah, I'm probably being anal on this, but that kinda goes with the territory of being in Life Safety Systems and a volunteer First Responder. We've been in the ATL area for going on 6 years and, even aside from all the outages from storms etc., it seems like at least once a year there's a water main break somewhere in there area with it's own outages followed by "boil water" alerts.

How antiquated IS the Atlanta water system? Well, I'm not saying it's old but the last time I saw them working on a water main, I glimpsed not only Roman numerals stamped on the pipe but also "Hic Erat Kilroy" scribbled on it.

For BEVERAGES such as coffee, tea etc. Tap water run thorough a Brita jug-style filter. At the very least, it removes the occasional chlorine taste/smell.

And the Brita water passes a "CAT Scan". Our cat won't drink Atlanta water out of the tap but she WILL drink it once it has been through the Brita filter. I trust that implicitly; Cats have an uncanny sense of when to stay away from something.


For COOKING, where it's going to be boiled and/or used for steaming anyway? Atlanta tap water is just fine.

As mentioned before, way back in the '80s I was for a time a Saucier and later Sous-Chef at a 3-Star restaurant in FL (Park Plaza Gardens, Winter Park FL). Competition for 'stars' is phenomenally fierce and the difference often revolves around trivialities that only a pro chef / pro critic can even detect. Believe me, if there was a 4th star to be had by using different cooking water, we'd have been ALL over it. There IS NO 'there' there.


For DRINKING STRAIGHT, well, it has nothing to do with water quality but I prefer carbonated water over tap water. But it doesn't have to be hoity-toity or imported from France. Club Soda from Kroger in 2L bottles is fine. Or for "to go" bottles, Deer Park, even in spite of the unfortunate brand name as posted earlier.
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#27 User is offline   oki 

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Posted 25 June 2019 - 01:53 PM

View PostMontyPython, on 22 June 2019 - 07:48 PM, said:

Well I can't pretend to know what difference it might make in the production of tea or coffee. I'm talking about the water itself. You know, drinking water. Water that you drink. I've never been able to taste any difference in water no matter where in the country I am. It's just water, and has no "taste" at all. Just plain old water.

As for beer, no point using worthless pisswater like Coors or Budweiser as examples, which all taste the same to a true beer lover like me anyway. Gimme a good stout or porter; You know, dark beer. Black beer. Beer you can slice and serve on a plate. Now that's beer, and I'm guessing the water makes very little difference. Coors and Budweiser just taste like water to me anyway.




Exactly. I've never been able to "taste" water. It's just water, and as far as I'm concerned has no "taste" at all. No matter where in the country I happen to be.

B)



A f'ng man on the beer. If I can't walk on it I probably won't like it. As far as water goes... put it you like this. Although you may not taste the difference between tap from here from there it can be so full of crud that over time it can cause all kinds of issues.
Guaranteed? No, of coarse not. Just like some people drink 2 bottles of Jack and smoke 4 packs of Marlboro's there whole life and live into their 90's sometimes you are more suspect able and sometimes not. Perfect example is all the people who got sick over the years from drinking contaminated water on mil basis. Not everyone did of coarse, but a lot did and traces right back to the water systems on base.

To give you an idea of the difference between purified water and non purified.
Imagine if you could repair an electrical item in a pool of water and not get zapped? Or at least the current would be so low that the chance of shock was negligible?
Sounds far fetched doesn't it? We all know that water and electricity don't mix right?
The part that's never explained though is that water itself is not a conductor, it's the impurities that are.
This video is pretty telling, one test with city tap water the other with a home filtration system.

Keep in mind though that the first test is from some filtered water.

https://www.youtube....h?v=4BXGRBQsPHE

Just gives you an idea of how 'clean' some tap water is.


Oki
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#28 User is offline   Dean Adam Smithee 

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Posted 25 June 2019 - 06:42 PM

View PostMontyPython, on 22 June 2019 - 07:48 PM, said:


Exactly. I've never been able to "taste" water. It's just water, and as far as I'm concerned has no "taste" at all. No matter where in the country I happen to be.

B)


That's EXACTLY as it should be. You're lucky in the PacNW. And when I lived in Portland ORE from '02-'12, for all the things wrong with the place, water quality wasn't one of them. A year in Ft. Collins Co just prior to that, I had no complaints about the water there either. I suspect the "Good water zone" extends as far east as the great lakes.

But the Midwest SOUTH of the great lakes such as Indiana? Different story. There's a town in central Indiana in Henry Co called Sulphur Springs. There's a REASON it's called that. Draw a glass of water from a local well and, Swear to God, before you even taste it you will smell it and your first thought will be, "Who farted in this glass of water?" Seriously. Eau-de-Limburger.

Several counties over in Morgan Co in southern Indiana, our problem wasn't sulphur but iron. A common problem in the midwest. Untreated, you could hold a white handkerchief under a tap and watch it turn rust-colored. It's not AT ALL unusual in the midwest to see toilets and/or sinks/bathtubs permanently stained from it.

http://www.water-rightgroup.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/Iron-stain-toilet-300x225.png

This post has been edited by Dean Adam Smithee: 25 June 2019 - 06:43 PM

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#29 User is offline   zurg 

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Posted 25 June 2019 - 07:20 PM

One comment about hard versus soft water. You probably wonít taste the difference BUT youíll feel it.

Take a shower in hard water. Lather yourself with regular bar soap real well while under the shower, and feel it come off .... like never. A travelerís nightmare, get up too late, go in for a quick shower and.... bloody soap wonít come off! Ten minutes later, use the hotel towel to get the rest off.

Lesson learned.
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#30 User is offline   Howsithangin 

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Posted 25 June 2019 - 10:26 PM

View Postzurg, on 25 June 2019 - 07:20 PM, said:

One comment about hard versus soft water. You probably wonít taste the difference BUT youíll feel it.

Take a shower in hard water. Lather yourself with regular bar soap real well while under the shower, and feel it come off .... like never. A travelerís nightmare, get up too late, go in for a quick shower and.... bloody soap wonít come off! Ten minutes later, use the hotel towel to get the rest off.

Lesson learned.

Yup. I use lufas with warm water

View PostDean Adam Smithee, on 22 June 2019 - 04:50 PM, said:

Does it [soft water] taste different? YES, without a doubt. Not necessarily better or worse, but different.

Make a one cup of coffee or tea with hard water and one with soft and I GUARANTEE you can tell the difference. One will taste "right", the other won't and which one depends largely on what you're used to.


Most definitely! Best public water I ever drank was from the East Coast metamorphic rock aquifers and surface water reservoirs. Water from the limestone aquifers from my current location, Hawaii, and when I lived in eastern NC don't compare. And you're correct again, even the coffee doesn't taste the same.
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#31 User is offline   Howsithangin 

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Posted 25 June 2019 - 10:42 PM

View PostDean Adam Smithee, on 22 June 2019 - 09:51 AM, said:

In at least some if not many cases it IS. Flint Michigan, anyone?

As an engineer who has done water purification projects, believe me on this: If you live in a city and rely on tap water without further purification, you've never had 'pure' water in your life; you've had what can be politely be called a "drinkable solution". Oh, yes, it's healthy enough. But only just, and as long as you don't mind a little chlorine, anti-corrosives (to protect the pipes and pumps), anti-foaming agents, etc., in your "drinkable solution".

Dirty little Secret of municipal water: Yes, they test for lead and other things. At the water plant. Never mind the miles or even hundred of miles of lead pipes between there and your tap.


That said, Some bottled waters deserve their own jeers. And the marketing hype is ridiculous. A major brand in the southeast is "Deer Park". As bottled water goes it's not bad. As a matter of fact I happen to like it. But who the Eff came up with the brand name and the marketing??? I suppose they were striving for an image of "all natural purity" but, well, I happen to know what deer do in parks. Today's word is Giardiasis.

Or, how about the hype of 'Artesian' water... as if the marketers expect the word to be confused with 'Artisan'??? In reality, artesian merely means... "it came out of a well". And that fact alone means diddly-squat in terms of purity. Heck, in some parts of southern Indiana and other places, you could take a whiff of a glass of well-water and your first thought would be, "who farted in this glass of water?"

Dirty Little Secret of bottled water: Much of it IS nothing more than tap water. That's not necessarily a bad thing though. At least their taps are usually fairly close to the water works, so at least you avoid all the lead or rusty pipes between there and your tap.


Bottom line: Tap water isn't always better. Bottled water isn't always better, or at least not better enough to pay a buck three-eight-five for a bottle of what you could get for mere pennies out of your tap.


Interesting. I didn't know you worked in the water industry.

You're certainly right about "pure water". I've been lucky to have had well water throughout some of my life, and wow, what a difference!

On the topic of tap vs bottled, something to also note: bottled water isn't regulated, Federally at least. There are no testing requirements. In contrast, public water supplies (defined as any supplier that provides tap water for more than 50 people) have testing and reporting requirements. There's a laundry list of chemicals that are tested for per the Clean Water Act. Most (all?) on this list have a US EPA Maximum Contaminant Level (MCL) that is an enforceable regulatory standard. That's not to state that there aren't problems, as you noted. You mentioned testing being conducted at the plant. While I know this to be the case, I'm also aware that a lot of providers test within the distribution system. Why some do and some do not I cannot explain. It certainly would have prevented the Flint situation.


You mention "lead pipes". Is it lead pipes or lead solder on copper and steel pipes?

The Federal testing requirements do not apply to bottled water. States can require it, though I don't believe that many do. So unless someone happens to conduct testing on their own, one really doesn't know what's in the bottle of water. Then there are those pleasant estrogen-mimics, bisphenol-A and the various phthalates (e.g., there is a reasonable amount of data on bis(2-ethylhexyl)phthalate in particular) that are present in the plastic bottles. These compounds leach out of the plastic when heated (do not leave bottled water in a hot car, or in the sun), or upon repeated use.

Regarding chlorine, the health concerns from trihaloomethanes (created when the chlorine that is added to water as a disinfectant reacts with dissolved organic matter in the water) pale in comparison to the alternative: bacteria.

This post has been edited by Howsithangin: 25 June 2019 - 10:44 PM

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#32 User is offline   Howsithangin 

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Posted 25 June 2019 - 10:47 PM

View PostDean Adam Smithee, on 22 June 2019 - 07:51 PM, said:

For DRINKING STRAIGHT, well, it has nothing to do with water quality but I prefer carbonated water over tap water. But it doesn't have to be hoity-toity or imported from France. Club Soda from Kroger in 2L bottles is fine. Or for "to go" bottles, Deer Park, even in spite of the unfortunate brand name as posted earlier.


I like my water cold, neat, with a few fingers of bourbon. :D
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#33 User is offline   MontyPython 

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Posted 26 June 2019 - 12:16 AM

View PostHowsithangin, on 25 June 2019 - 10:47 PM, said:

I like my water cold, neat, with a few fingers of bourbon. :D


Now yer talkin'. I also like it brewed with certain heavy hops & grains and then bottled.

:drinkers:
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#34 User is offline   Howsithangin 

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Posted 26 June 2019 - 01:22 AM

View PostMontyPython, on 26 June 2019 - 12:16 AM, said:

Now yer talkin'. I also like it brewed with certain heavy hops & grains and then bottled.

:drinkers:

That too! :thumbsup:
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#35 User is online   JerryL 

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Posted 26 June 2019 - 05:54 AM

View PostMontyPython, on 22 June 2019 - 01:59 PM, said:

Fair enough I suppose, but my whole point/position hinges on consuming it. Does it taste different? Does it quench thirst better? Or worse? Does it still boil an egg? Can you make gravy with it? And so forth. To me the whole "bottled water" and/or "filtered water" phenomenon that has cropped up in the past couple decades is nothing short of a money-making hoax by those who sell bottled water and water filters.

:shrug:

It absolutely tastes different. In France, there are many types of bottled and mineral water. One of them, Hepar, has a high magnesium content and tastes a bit different but has a disagreable consistency in the mouth. Evian has great (i.e. little) taste and is very refreshing, but expensive. And they vary. We usually buy the cheapest store brand mineral water which runs about $1.50 for 6 1.5 liter bottles. We buy it because Paris water tastes bad and who knows what else is in it.

I grew up, as you know, with Spokane water and I would put Spokane tap water up against any water out there. I never buy water in Washington. Now when I was in University, the water in Moscow, Idaho, tasted like you were drinking rust. I drank it anyone because I couldn't afford bottled water and nobody was buying it anyway in the early 80s. When we were in the DC area, same thing, but we did buy water. Very unpleasant metallic taste to the water there.

In the Navy we went to places (Karachi, Pakistan, for example) where were told in no uncertain terms not to drink the water because of dysentery and other water borne diseases.
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#36 User is offline   MontyPython 

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Posted 26 June 2019 - 12:47 PM

View PostJerryL, on 26 June 2019 - 05:54 AM, said:

It absolutely tastes different. In France, there are many types of bottled and mineral water. One of them, Hepar, has a high magnesium content and tastes a bit different but has a disagreable consistency in the mouth. Evian has great (i.e. little) taste and is very refreshing, but expensive. And they vary. We usually buy the cheapest store brand mineral water which runs about $1.50 for 6 1.5 liter bottles. We buy it because Paris water tastes bad and who knows what else is in it.

I grew up, as you know, with Spokane water and I would put Spokane tap water up against any water out there. I never buy water in Washington. Now when I was in University, the water in Moscow, Idaho, tasted like you were drinking rust. I drank it anyone because I couldn't afford bottled water and nobody was buying it anyway in the early 80s. When we were in the DC area, same thing, but we did buy water. Very unpleasant metallic taste to the water there.

In the Navy we went to places (Karachi, Pakistan, for example) where were told in no uncertain terms not to drink the water because of dysentery and other water borne diseases.


Well as I said before, I'll just have to take your word for it. I've never been to Paris (or anywhere else in Europe) but I have been many places in North America and never could taste any difference in the water.

:shrug:

But here's a point I think I can make that has validity: All through this thread I've been informed that the water here in western WA is excellent. I have yet to read any contradiction to that claim. So I can't figure out why anybody here would buy bottled water. But they do, including my girlfriend, LOL. We always have bottled water in the fridge.

:scratch:
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#37 User is offline   Severian 

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Posted 26 June 2019 - 02:45 PM

Just remember what Evian spelled backwards is.

I've noticed different tap water tastes different, usually due to whatever mineral content is in it. If you want to taste the most godawful water ever, try pure distilled water. You don't think water has a taste, but the dissolved salts and minerals in it give it a taste and a feel on the tongue that distilled doesn't have. It's flat, has no taste but it's still ugh. We tried drinking it back in my chemistry class, qualitative analysis, we had to use pure distilled water to rinse out the equipment to keep from contaminating the results so we had gallons and gallons of it around. Ugh.

As for the organic natural crowd, whenever they say it's all natural so it has to be good, I point out that arsenic and strychnine are both "natural."
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#38 User is offline   Liz 

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Posted 26 June 2019 - 03:21 PM

View PostSeverian, on 26 June 2019 - 02:45 PM, said:

Just remember what Evian spelled backwards is.

I've noticed different tap water tastes different, usually due to whatever mineral content is in it. If you want to taste the most godawful water ever, try pure distilled water. You don't think water has a taste, but the dissolved salts and minerals in it give it a taste and a feel on the tongue that distilled doesn't have. It's flat, has no taste but it's still ugh. We tried drinking it back in my chemistry class, qualitative analysis, we had to use pure distilled water to rinse out the equipment to keep from contaminating the results so we had gallons and gallons of it around. Ugh.

As for the organic natural crowd, whenever they say it's all natural so it has to be good, I point out that arsenic and strychnine are both "natural."

I agree with you on the taste (or lack of) distilled water. I distill water regularly to use in our humidifiers and clothes steamers and no, it's not something you'd want to drink.
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#39 User is offline   Ladybird 

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Posted 26 June 2019 - 04:38 PM

Water tastes different in every state, even in different regions of the state. And well water? That's just fine if you don't mind the fart smell.
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#40 User is offline   Severian 

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Posted 26 June 2019 - 04:54 PM

View PostLadybird, on 26 June 2019 - 04:38 PM, said:

Water tastes different in every state, even in different regions of the state. And well water? That's just fine if you don't mind the fart smell.

That's not true everywhere either.
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