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Michael Yon: The Panjwai 16 The murders in Afghanistan were all too predictable Rate Topic: -----

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 10:56 AM

View PostBuckwheat Jones, on 16 March 2012 - 10:36 AM, said:

You know, I'm frustrated. The mission over there is bigger than any one man and this guy has just done a lot of damage to it. I don't care how many years of service he has, he has just cost us all. You're right. We don't know what happened, and I'll reserve final judgment until we do. But if it turns out to be a case where some guy went nuts and shot up a bunch of kids who were doing nothing but doing what kids do, then I don't care if they throw him to the "wolves" over there or give him the needle over here.

Maybe this guy had some special insight that these 16 women and kids were actually building bombs and took it upon himself to go kill them instead of alerting his superiors, but that just doesn't seem very likely. If he just got pissed off and felt like shooting a bunch of people to let off steam, well, I'm not going to stand behind someone like that. I've been on here for over 10 years in support of our service people in the middle east, so don't be ashamed on my account.


You need to read up on the affects of shell-shock and PTSD on roughly 3% of those afflicted by it. I've witnessed the affects of it, you're condemning a man who was probably mentally ill because of his experiences.

This NCO's past history and service record doesn't tally with what he did.
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#22 User is offline   De Oppresso Liber 

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 10:57 AM

View PostBuckwheat Jones, on 16 March 2012 - 10:36 AM, said:

You know, I'm frustrated. The mission over there is bigger than any one man and this guy has just done a lot of damage to it. I don't care how many years of service he has, he has just cost us all. You're right. We don't know what happened, and I'll reserve final judgment until we do. But if it turns out to be a case where some guy went nuts and shot up a bunch of kids who were doing nothing but doing what kids do, then I don't care if they throw him to the "wolves" over there or give him the needle over here.

Maybe this guy had some special insight that these 16 women and kids were actually building bombs and took it upon himself to go kill them instead of alerting his superiors, but that just doesn't seem very likely. If he just got pissed off and felt like shooting a bunch of people to let off steam, well, I'm not going to stand behind someone like that. I've been on here for over 10 years in support of our service people in the middle east, so don't be ashamed on my account.



Ok, so do you care about his rights as an American? Do you believe he still has a right to a fair trial? Do you honestly think that would happen if you turned him over?
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Posted 16 March 2012 - 11:03 AM

This was a serving NCO in a combat unit. Part of his job is to watch out for grunts who are going to flake in the field. It's a pity nobody was covering this man's back.

The system failed him.
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Posted 16 March 2012 - 11:06 AM

View PostUSNRETWIFE, on 16 March 2012 - 10:02 AM, said:

Reactions like what I'm seeing on this board, before everything is known, is another reason I tried, unsuccessfully, to talk my grandson out of joining the Army. I don't know what happened or why this soldier did this. To throw him to the savages before all is known isn't any better than those savages. No, I don't expect my grandson to go nuts and start shooting up people. But I'm sure this soldier's family didn't expect it either. But for the so called conservatives to turn on this soldier before all is known, and then point fingers at the libs for not supporting our troops is hypocritical. So, who here will be the first to spit on a returning soldier?

My nephew is in Afghanistan now, and I worry about him every day. I realize this makes things much worse for our men and women over there. It is time to get them out of there. Our arm chair generals put them in life threatening situations under laughable ROE and what I suspect is a Muslim CinC, and our citizens back home are yelling to throw him to the wolves.

I come from a long line of military men, and my husband's family is the same. And as proud as I am of every military family member, past and present, I would never recommend the armed forces to anyone now, without the support of the population, even the ones the services used to be able to count on. It has always been a thankless career, now it is even more so. And it makes me ashamed of the American people.


It's unreal this man is being condemned by some, this is a man who needs help and not condemnation.
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#25 User is offline   Buckwheat Jones 

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 11:07 AM

View PostDe Oppresso Liber, on 16 March 2012 - 10:54 AM, said:

You said a key word here yourself: Tried.

That would not happen if he was handed over. He would simply be killed. That stands against everything we represent.

Yes, I imagine there is still a death penalty in the UCMJ, but I do not believe it is used but rarely.

No, I get it. When I initially said throwing him over the fence was a good idea it was with the understanding that this was simply a massacre. If it's anything else, I can't wait to hear the reason.

And this whole thing is very frustrating to me. For years the military has been sacrificing so much to try and do something positive over there and then this happens. I'm not sure what the right course of action will be.
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#26 User is offline   Buckwheat Jones 

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 11:11 AM

View Postpict, on 16 March 2012 - 11:06 AM, said:

It's unreal this man is being condemned by some, this is a man who needs help and not condemnation.

Would I see the same sense of compassion from you if some guy "who needed help" walked on to a schoolyard in Chicago with an M-4 and shot up a dozen kids?
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#27 User is offline   Buckwheat Jones 

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 11:15 AM

View PostDe Oppresso Liber, on 16 March 2012 - 10:57 AM, said:

Ok, so do you care about his rights as an American? Do you believe he still has a right to a fair trial? Do you honestly think that would happen if you turned him over?

I do believe he will get and should get a fair trial. See the post above. But if it turns out to be a massacre I don't have any sympathy for him just because he was military. If he was sick and snapped, I suppose they will do with him whatever they do with guys like that. Life in the puzzle house, I suppose. But it won't do much to further any goals over there.
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Posted 16 March 2012 - 11:15 AM

View PostBuckwheat Jones, on 16 March 2012 - 11:11 AM, said:

Would I see the same sense of compassion from you if some guy "who needed help" walked on to a schoolyard in Chicago with an M-4 and shot up a dozen kids?
A strawman comparison.

Let me explain to you the affects of PTSD. This was a guy who in the dead of night, booted in house doors and opened fire. Do you know what he was doing? I'll tell you, he was doing what any combat soldier does when engaged in urban warfare.

PTSD will cause an individual to relive past experiences, they get paranoid. This NCO served 3 tours in Iraq, what the Hell do you think he was doing over there?
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#29 User is offline   Buckwheat Jones 

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 11:24 AM

View Postpict, on 16 March 2012 - 11:15 AM, said:

A strawman comparison.

Let me explain to you the affects of PTSD. This was a guy who in the dead of night, booted in house doors and opened fire. Do you know what he was doing? I'll tell you, he was doing what any combat soldier does when engaged in urban warfare.

PTSD will cause an individual to relive past experiences, they get paranoid. This NCO served 3 tours in Iraq, what the Hell do you think he was doing over there?

No. It's no strawman at all. Some civilian guy whose father beat him all his life, saw his mother murdered, etc. etc. is going to have stress and ptsd issues too. And if he goes out and murders a bunch of people, are you going to have the same sense of compassion for him as well?
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Posted 16 March 2012 - 11:30 AM

View PostBuckwheat Jones, on 16 March 2012 - 11:24 AM, said:

No. It's no strawman at all. Some civilian guy whose father beat him all his life, saw his mother murdered, etc. etc. is going to have stress and ptsd issues too. And if he goes out and murders a bunch of people, are you going to have the same sense of compassion for him as well?


You don't understand what I'm telling you, your comparison is a cover your ass strawman. Combat units are trained to do what he did, that's their job. In an urban setting they're taught to kick in doors and kill. I realize this may seem rather violent to you, but that's what we train our men to do.

This was the man's 4th deployment. As I said, you need to read up on the affects of severe PTSD.
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Posted 16 March 2012 - 11:57 AM

View Postpict, on 16 March 2012 - 11:30 AM, said:

You don't understand what I'm telling you, your comparison is a cover your ass strawman. Combat units are trained to do what he did, that's their job. In an urban setting they're taught to kick in doors and kill. I realize this may seem rather violent to you, but that's what we train our men to do.

This was the man's 4th deployment. As I said, you need to read up on the affects of severe PTSD.

No, I get it. Again. And I understand what our men are trained to do. Violence and all. But everybody has their own saturation point, so there's nothing strawman about the comparison. This guy supposedly popped when he hit his, the same as some crazed guy hits his own when he shoots up a school yard full of kids or a college campus. Do you have the same amount of understanding for that guy? Or does this one get a pass because he's military?

Either way, it doesn't matter much because no matter where he gets tried or what his sentence is it won't put things back together I don't think. I've already said that if they threw him to the afghans it wouldn't make much difference in the long run and I admit that I made the statement out of a sense of frustration. It just pisses me off that he's not only turned back the hands of time on anything positive we've done over there, but also just put a whole lot of allied people in the line of fire. Plus he's (possibly) just massacred a bunch of women and kids. I'm not having much luck feeling sorry for him.
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Posted 16 March 2012 - 12:07 PM

View PostBuckwheat Jones, on 16 March 2012 - 11:57 AM, said:

No, I get it. Again. And I understand what our men are trained to do. Violence and all. But everybody has their own saturation point, so there's nothing strawman about the comparison. This guy supposedly popped when he hit his, the same as some crazed guy hits his own when he shoots up a school yard full of kids or a college campus. Do you have the same amount of understanding for that guy? Or does this one get a pass because he's military?

Either way, it doesn't matter much because no matter where he gets tried or what his sentence is it won't put things back together I don't think. I've already said that if they threw him to the afghans it wouldn't make much difference in the long run and I admit that I made the statement out of a sense of frustration. It just pisses me off that he's not only turned back the hands of time on anything positive we've done over there, but also just put a whole lot of allied people in the line of fire. Plus he's (possibly) just massacred a bunch of women and kids. I'm not having much luck feeling sorry for him.
Put it this way:

Think about it, what trained soldier in a fit mental state would go out alone in Afghanistan and carry out urban warfare? It's a suicide task, that's why he's been taken into protective custody. The man just cracked.
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Posted 16 March 2012 - 12:14 PM

View PostBuckwheat Jones, on 16 March 2012 - 11:11 AM, said:

Would I see the same sense of compassion from you if some guy "who needed help" walked on to a schoolyard in Chicago with an M-4 and shot up a dozen kids?

I, for one, wouldn't go all Nancy Grace on him. I would want to see what the courts said, not try him in the media, like so often happens. If he was just shooting people up for the heck of it, then yeah, fry him. I am willing to wait and see if what I've read about this soldier's history is true. If so, some compassion is warranted. If not true, then treat him like any other murderer. But to try him in the media before anything is known is wrong.

ETA: As for the comparison of a man whose father beat him all his like, our government did not put that man into that family. Our government does put these soldiers into fields of battle. I do think a little waiting to see what is up with this soldier before condeming him is not to much to ask.

This post has been edited by USNRETWIFE: 16 March 2012 - 12:20 PM

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 12:17 PM

View Postpict, on 16 March 2012 - 12:07 PM, said:

Put it this way:

Think about it, what trained soldier in a fit mental state would go out alone in Afghanistan and carry out urban warfare? It's a suicide task, that's why he's been taken into protective custody. The man just cracked.


Well, it's just a really bad thing all around. I don't know why anybody would be sent on 4 tours, so you're right. The system did the guy no favors.
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Posted 16 March 2012 - 12:21 PM

View PostBuckwheat Jones, on 16 March 2012 - 12:17 PM, said:

Well, it's just a really bad thing all around. I don't know why anybody would be sent on 4 tours, so you're right. The system did the guy no favors.

It isn't just the tours it's what you're tasked to do. This man is a combat vet, who suffered a brain injury in Iraq in 2010.

This is an honorable soldier failed by the system. His superiors weren't covering his back.
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Posted 16 March 2012 - 12:25 PM

He had no wingman.
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Posted 16 March 2012 - 12:46 PM

View Postpict, on 16 March 2012 - 12:21 PM, said:

It isn't just the tours it's what you're tasked to do. This man is a combat vet, who suffered a brain injury in Iraq in 2010.

This is an honorable soldier failed by the system. His superiors weren't covering his back.



Reminds me of the "good old daze back in 72..yep! deju-vu all over again I can hardly wait to start seeing the parade of obliviods down at the airport to spit on the returning vets...who rememebers the signs "baby-killers!!"...I remember.

Kestrel...
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Posted 16 March 2012 - 01:14 PM

If someone was watching out for this guy, his "tell" could be seen a mile away. How many of you saw "The Hurt Locker"? Did anyone else notice how SFC James was a little "off"? I can guarantee this guy was "off", but for some reason nobody said anything, just like Pict said.

The stupid, gimped assed RoE is what is doing this to our soldiers and Marines. It is preventing them from "winning" the war for the simple fact that they are trained to kill people and break things but are being used as Quran fodder.

It's crap and we need to get out. We need to get out, not because we've lost the will to fight (as the Left has), but because we're not using them in the manner in which they're supposed to be used for.

This post has been edited by Hawkeyeted: 16 March 2012 - 01:16 PM

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 02:06 PM

View PostHawkeyeted, on 16 March 2012 - 01:14 PM, said:

If someone was watching out for this guy, his "tell" could be seen a mile away. How many of you saw "The Hurt Locker"? Did anyone else notice how SFC James was a little "off"? I can guarantee this guy was "off", but for some reason nobody said anything, just like Pict said.

The stupid, gimped assed RoE is what is doing this to our soldiers and Marines. It is preventing them from "winning" the war for the simple fact that they are trained to kill people and break things but are being used as Quran fodder.

It's crap and we need to get out. We need to get out, not because we've lost the will to fight (as the Left has), but because we're not using them in the manner in which they're supposed to be used for.
Nobody was covering his back.
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Posted 16 March 2012 - 02:06 PM

View PostBuckwheat Jones, on 16 March 2012 - 11:07 AM, said:

No, I get it. When I initially said throwing him over the fence was a good idea it was with the understanding that this was simply a massacre. If it's anything else, I can't wait to hear the reason.

And this whole thing is very frustrating to me. For years the military has been sacrificing so much to try and do something positive over there and then this happens. I'm not sure what the right course of action will be.



I got ya.

I am in no way saying this guy should be let off for this. No, he did the crime and he needs to face justice for it. Whatever the reason behind his act. But to hand him over the the Afghans is murder. There are no ifs ands or buts about that. He would not get a fair trial. He would simply be butchered. And no matter the crime he did, he is an American, and has the right to a fair trial. That is all I am saying.

To keep this in perspective, even Nidal Hassan is getting a fair trial...
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