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#21 User is offline   SARGE 

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Posted 30 November 2017 - 07:21 PM

View Postoki, on 30 November 2017 - 12:11 PM, said:

Yup. When something is INTENTIONALLY made difficult or EXPENSIVE to legally own, participate in, or exercise use of it, it essentially causes a de facto ban but still allows people to say it isn't actually banned. If the government decided to impose a $50,000 vehicle tax, background checks, psychological tests and a good reason to have one test they could claim it isn't a ban, but damn well the goal would be to stop private vehicle ownership.

Oki



When my wife bought a suppressor for her 1911A1 four years ago, she had to buy a stamp from ATF as per the National Firearms Act (NFA) of 1934.

The stamp cost $200 (established by the NFA in 1934).

$200 in 1934 is the equivalent of $3300 today.

No way we'd have bought that stamp if it was priced in today's dollars, so yeah, a ban in all but name at the time the law was enacted.
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#22 User is offline   zurg 

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Posted 30 November 2017 - 10:04 PM

View Postscotsman, on 30 November 2017 - 05:22 PM, said:

Nope. The blanket statement guns are banned in Australia or the UK or anywhere is quite simply false. There may be bad laws, there may be restrictions (your country has restrictions as well), but to say guns are banned is simply false. Now we can debate whats legal and whats not, we can debate the laws, but guns are not banned in Australia. End of. Some may be, some are not. The only twisting of logic is yours.

So I am correct to state 'guns are banned in Australia' is a myth.

This is what people say when they just want to win on a technicality.
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#23 User is offline   oki 

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Posted 30 November 2017 - 10:54 PM

View Postscotsman, on 30 November 2017 - 05:22 PM, said:

Nope. The blanket statement guns are banned in Australia or the UK or anywhere is quite simply false. There may be bad laws, there may be restrictions (your country has restrictions as well), but to say guns are banned is simply false. Now we can debate whats legal and whats not, we can debate the laws, but guns are not banned in Australia. End of. Some may be, some are not. The only twisting of logic is yours.

So I am correct to state 'guns are banned in Australia' is a myth.



And black people could always vote in the south. Thing is it was intentionally made difficult to prevent them from voting as much as possible.
When you make something as difficult as possible it may not be a ban but the goal is not much different.

Oki
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#24 User is offline   oki 

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Posted 30 November 2017 - 10:56 PM

View PostSARGE, on 30 November 2017 - 07:21 PM, said:

When my wife bought a suppressor for her 1911A1 four years ago, she had to buy a stamp from ATF as per the National Firearms Act (NFA) of 1934.

The stamp cost $200 (established by the NFA in 1934).

$200 in 1934 is the equivalent of $3300 today.

No way we'd have bought that stamp if it was priced in today's dollars, so yeah, a ban in all but name at the time the law was enacted.



Exactly. At least Singapore is honest in their reasons for making cars so expensive, the goal is to get cars of the road and out of peoples hands.

Oki
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#25 User is offline   scotsman 

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Posted 01 December 2017 - 07:34 AM

View Postzurg, on 30 November 2017 - 10:04 PM, said:

This is what people say when they just want to win on a technicality.


Its a blanket statement that isn't true. Just like guns are banned in the UK. By vector's logic, I could use US bans/restrictions to argue guns are banned in the US, and that would be as stupid as it gets.
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#26 User is offline   scotsman 

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Posted 01 December 2017 - 07:43 AM

Lets look at the actual facts of guns in Australia:

What it's Like to Own Guns in a Country with Strict Gun Control

'I love firearms. I collect them and I enjoy shooting them. I probably have 30 pistols and 20 rifles or shotgun combinations. My family has always had lots and lots of firearms. My father was a shooter and we had a property when I was growing up, so from the age of 12 I had a rifle. Target shooting was offered as a school sport and I used to carry my .308 rifle to the rifle range unsupervised with my friends on Saturday for practice and competition.

Then, after the 1996 massacre, I probably had to hand in six to eight semiautomatic rifles and shotguns to the police. We got fair value for them, but I wasn’t thrilled to be doing it because I thought “Well gee, what have I done wrong?” Would anything untoward ever have happened with the firearms I owned? No.

A lot of people think there aren’t any guns in Australia any more, but there are. By some estimates there is one gun for every seven people. My local suburban pistol club has 300 members. My sons have been shooting since they were 12 and both have rifle and pistol licenses.

It’s actually not that hard to own a gun.'



http://time.com/4172...ct-gun-control/




How easy is it to get a gun in Australia?


https://www.sbs.com....t-gun-australia


Australia's Gun Laws Aren't As Tough As You Think, And Standards Are Slipping

http://www.huffingto...ing_a_23233112/


http://www.gunpolicy...egion/australia
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#27 User is offline   scotsman 

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Posted 01 December 2017 - 07:46 AM

View Postvectorsrule, on 30 November 2017 - 08:48 AM, said:

Semi auto rifles are illegal and the Govt required that gun buyers present a “genuine reason” for needing each weapon at the time of the purchase. So for all intents and purposes guns are banned. If an average citizen can't own what the military has, and doesn't have a "genuine reason" then they won't have a gun. That is a ban. Although, though twisted logic you can be technically correct. Claiming it is a myth is absurd.


You an Aussie?. No.
Ever been there?. No.

Neither am I, even though I have been there.


So why don't we ask my cousins in Gunning, 40m north of Sydney. Who ARE Aussies and gun owners at that. Who are farmers, but also members of the local gun club and own several guns. I know, I handled and fired them in 2001!.
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#28 User is offline   JerryL 

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Posted 01 December 2017 - 08:43 AM

View Postscotsman, on 01 December 2017 - 07:46 AM, said:

You an Aussie?. No.
Ever been there?. No.

Neither am I, even though I have been there.


So why don't we ask my cousins in Gunning, 40m north of Sydney. Who ARE Aussies and gun owners at that. Who are farmers, but also members of the local gun club and own several guns. I know, I handled and fired them in 2001!.


Am I an Aussie? No.
Have I ever been there? Yes. 5 times.

How likely are your cousins, or any other legal gun owner, to have been in Federation Square...ARMED with their "legal" firearms...in any position to have stopped this terrorist had he been able to carry out his plot?
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#29 User is offline   scotsman 

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Posted 01 December 2017 - 10:31 AM

View PostJerryL, on 01 December 2017 - 08:43 AM, said:

Am I an Aussie? No.
Have I ever been there? Yes. 5 times.

How likely are your cousins, or any other legal gun owner, to have been in Federation Square...ARMED with their "legal" firearms...in any position to have stopped this terrorist had he been able to carry out his plot?


How many terrorists have US gun owners stopped?. How many mass/spree shooters have US owners stopped?. Answer: none and few.

I am tired of being lectured about why didn't ya Brits stop the Lee Rigby murder or who is Aussieland would have stopped this, by people who didn't stop James Hagerty in 1984, or James Holmes 30 yrs later, or the many, many US mass shootings over the decades. 99% of US shooters are stopped by the police.

This post has been edited by scotsman: 01 December 2017 - 10:32 AM

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#30 User is offline   JerryL 

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Posted 01 December 2017 - 10:37 AM

View Postscotsman, on 01 December 2017 - 10:31 AM, said:

How many terrorists have US gun owners stopped?. How many mass/spree shooters have US owners stopped?. Answer: none and few.

I am tired of being lectured about why didn't ya Brits stop the Lee Rigby murder or who is Aussieland would have stopped this, by people who didn't stop James Hagerty in 1984, or James Holmes 30 yrs later, or the many, many US mass shootings over the decades. 99% of US shooters are stopped by the police.

I didn't lecture you.

You asked questions and I answered them.

I asked a question and you get your knickers in a twist.

I will take your tirade to mean "Not very likely."
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#31 User is offline   zurg 

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Posted 01 December 2017 - 11:29 AM

View Postscotsman, on 01 December 2017 - 10:31 AM, said:

How many terrorists have US gun owners stopped?. How many mass/spree shooters have US owners stopped?. Answer: none and few.

I am tired of being lectured about why didn't ya Brits stop the Lee Rigby murder or who is Aussieland would have stopped this, by people who didn't stop James Hagerty in 1984, or James Holmes 30 yrs later, or the many, many US mass shootings over the decades. 99% of US shooters are stopped by the police.

I'm gonna just call the biggest BS on your red faced twisty pants response.

There are multiple reports available in this fantastic country of the U S of A, where bystander firearms are shown to have prevented shootings and other violent attacks. And there are reports where potential mass shootings were limited. (In fact, most recently, in Texas, the mass shooter fleeing the church may have been on his way to another killing.) Just because CNN, MSNBC and Keith Olberman don't discuss them, doesn't mean you can have your own facts and state that stopped terrorists and mass shootings equal "none and few".
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#32 User is offline   scotsman 

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Posted 01 December 2017 - 12:31 PM

View PostJerryL, on 01 December 2017 - 10:37 AM, said:

I didn't lecture you.

You asked questions and I answered them.

I asked a question and you get your knickers in a twist.

I will take your tirade to mean "Not very likely."


It gets tiring to be told off for not doing enough from people who don't seem to stop terrorists, a multitude of spree/mass shooters.

Yep, not likely. But then my point is that the US isn't that better, for all the guns and the macho posturing.
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#33 User is offline   scotsman 

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Posted 01 December 2017 - 12:36 PM

View Postzurg, on 01 December 2017 - 11:29 AM, said:

I'm gonna just call the biggest BS on your red faced twisty pants response.

There are multiple reports available in this fantastic country of the U S of A, where bystander firearms are shown to have prevented shootings and other violent attacks. And there are reports where potential mass shootings were limited. (In fact, most recently, in Texas, the mass shooter fleeing the church may have been on his way to another killing.) Just because CNN, MSNBC and Keith Olberman don't discuss them, doesn't mean you can have your own facts and state that stopped terrorists and mass shootings equal "none and few".


I was and am talking spree/mass shootings. FFS, I was a child when Hagerty walked into that McDonalds. Or Brenda Spencer picked off schoolkids for fun. I am now a middle aged man, and the shootings continue. How many ordinary gun carrying Americans stopped Hagerty, Spencer, James Holmes, Paddock, the Killeen shooter and all the mass/spree shootings of the last 30-40 years in the US?. The fact is the brave Texas men who hunted the shooter down are very much the exception. You know it and so do I. If you claim otherwise, the BS is yours, not mine.

For all the guns, all the macho BS, all the sneering at the Brits and Yooros/Aussies/Canucks for not stopping murders and acts like Lee Rigby or Nice or Westminster Bridge, y'all really don't do any better. Its the brave men and women in blue who save the day.

This post has been edited by scotsman: 01 December 2017 - 12:41 PM

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#34 User is offline   scotsman 

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Posted 01 December 2017 - 12:37 PM

View PostJerryL, on 01 December 2017 - 10:37 AM, said:

I didn't lecture you.

You asked questions and I answered them.

I asked a question and you get your knickers in a twist.

I will take your tirade to mean "Not very likely."


Glasgow Airport. And those men weren't even armed with a nailfile. Let alone a .45.

This post has been edited by scotsman: 01 December 2017 - 12:42 PM

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#35 User is offline   JerryL 

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Posted 01 December 2017 - 03:05 PM

View Postscotsman, on 01 December 2017 - 12:31 PM, said:

It gets tiring to be told off for not doing enough from people who don't seem to stop terrorists, a multitude of spree/mass shooters.

Yep, not likely. But then my point is that the US isn't that better, for all the guns and the macho posturing.

Did I tell you off? Don’t think so.

But hey, vent where you want to.
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#36 User is offline   JerryL 

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Posted 01 December 2017 - 03:06 PM

View Postscotsman, on 01 December 2017 - 12:37 PM, said:

Glasgow Airport. And those men weren't even armed with a nailfile. Let alone a .45.

You may have mistaken me for someone who responded to something you didn’t say or ask.

Sorry. I responded to what you did say and did ask.
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#37 User is offline   SARGE 

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Posted 01 December 2017 - 05:31 PM

View Postscotsman, on 01 December 2017 - 10:31 AM, said:

How many terrorists have US gun owners stopped?. How many mass/spree shooters have US owners stopped?. Answer: none and few.

I am tired of being lectured about why didn't ya Brits stop the Lee Rigby murder or who is Aussieland would have stopped this, by people who didn't stop James Hagerty in 1984, or James Holmes 30 yrs later, or the many, many US mass shootings over the decades. 99% of US shooters are stopped by the police.



Not true, Scotsman.

Armed Bystander Stops Mass Shooting at Oregon Strip Club – Media Silent
---http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2014/01/armed-bystander-stops-mass-shooting-at-oregon-strip-club-media-silent-video/

Here's 12 more.---http://controversialtimes.com/issues/constitutional-rights/12-times-mass-shootings-were-stopped-by-good-guys-with-guns/

This post has been edited by SARGE: 01 December 2017 - 07:32 PM

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#38 User is offline   scotsman 

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Posted 03 December 2017 - 06:03 AM

View PostJerryL, on 01 December 2017 - 03:05 PM, said:

Did I tell you off? Don’t think so.

But hey, vent where you want to.


I am clearly venting on a general basis. Millions of words did I read post-Rigby, Nice and other incidents from the John Wayne/Dirty Harry wannabes moaning about how the Limeys and Yooros didn't just get our their 45's and blast away.
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#39 User is offline   scotsman 

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Posted 03 December 2017 - 06:08 AM

View PostSARGE, on 01 December 2017 - 05:31 PM, said:

Not true, Scotsman.

Armed Bystander Stops Mass Shooting at Oregon Strip Club – Media Silent
---http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2014/01/armed-bystander-stops-mass-shooting-at-oregon-strip-club-media-silent-video/

Here's 12 more.---http://controversialtimes.com/issues/constitutional-rights/12-times-mass-shootings-were-stopped-by-good-guys-with-guns/


Thanks for the link., Had heard/remember a couple, not the others.

TBH, it still does not invalidate what I say. The fact is that, sadly, since the 70s and esp the 80s, the US has seen dozens upon dozens of mass/spree shootings. From Whitman and Spencer to Las Vegas. For every one of those 12 (brave people), there are several mass shootings where nobody stopped it. Where there was nobody to get out their .38 or .45.

In other words, as said, in 95-99% of such incidents, Americans are as helpless as the average Brit, Yooro, Canuck and Aussie. And as reliant on the good men and women in uniform.

View PostSARGE, on 01 December 2017 - 05:31 PM, said:

Not true, Scotsman.

Armed Bystander Stops Mass Shooting at Oregon Strip Club – Media Silent
---http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2014/01/armed-bystander-stops-mass-shooting-at-oregon-strip-club-media-silent-video/

Here's 12 more.---http://controversialtimes.com/issues/constitutional-rights/12-times-mass-shootings-were-stopped-by-good-guys-with-guns/


I love the notion of saving the day at a strip club lol. I know what my reward would be lol.

This post has been edited by scotsman: 03 December 2017 - 06:28 AM

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#40 User is offline   scotsman 

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Posted 03 December 2017 - 06:17 AM

View Postzurg, on 01 December 2017 - 11:29 AM, said:

I'm gonna just call the biggest BS on your red faced twisty pants response.

There are multiple reports available in this fantastic country of the U S of A, where bystander firearms are shown to have prevented shootings and other violent attacks. And there are reports where potential mass shootings were limited. (In fact, most recently, in Texas, the mass shooter fleeing the church may have been on his way to another killing.) Just because CNN, MSNBC and Keith Olberman don't discuss them, doesn't mean you can have your own facts and state that stopped terrorists and mass shootings equal "none and few".


If I wrote that about the UK, I would be accused on here of arrogance and chauvinism. In fact, I HAVE been criticised for crowing about Scotland, the UK and our achievements/culture/history(when what I actually do is just remind people of what we have done, esp if others are claiming credit).

Yes, you are a fantastic country, with breathtaking beauty and lovely people. I would love to go back tomorrow. I have been away too long. Far too long.

This post has been edited by scotsman: 03 December 2017 - 06:29 AM

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