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Steinle Verdict (Merged) Kate Steinle trial: Garcia Zarate acquitted in San Francisco pier kill Rate Topic: -----

#21 User is offline   gravelrash 

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Posted 01 December 2017 - 09:48 AM

View PostDutch13, on 01 December 2017 - 07:43 AM, said:

He was found guilty of the crimes he was guilty of. The prosecutor made a huge error in trying to prosecute an accidental shooting as a premeditated murder......unless he intended a richochet to hit the target it did.

The guy never should have been in the US and was at fault for her death, but there is more than just Sean Hannity's radio show given to the jury as evidence. All the jury needed was reasonable doubt, and they had that based on evidence presented by the defense.
Here is an article, from the right, about the trial: https://www.redstate...e-steinle-case/


I wonder if the prosecution trumped the charges of "premeditated murder" knowing full well by law that it wouldn't stick.

As for the defense of "accidentally discharging"? That's something a 5 or 10 year old who found daddy's gun might do. The defendant is a 45 year-old man. My age. What's his excuse? Oh, he's a criminal alien who can barely speak English? I didn't know that proficiency in the language was requisite from knowing right from wrong.

And whatever happened to the FBI agent who left the gun in the car in the first place? Does that moron still have a job? Or was he issued a reprimand and a two-day suspension with pay?

No, this is BS and you full well know it. The reason that the defense didn't enter a plea bargain is because they knew that the prosecution was going to play the game so this <censored>er would walk free.

The prosecutors, the defense, and the jurors... may they all die of something that is slow, painful, inoperable, and incurable. <censored> California.
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#22 User is offline   gravelrash 

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Posted 01 December 2017 - 09:51 AM

View PostDean Adam Smithee, on 01 December 2017 - 09:39 AM, said:

I agree entirely, and Neal Boortz covered it on his radio show this morning.

There's plenty of people that one should be angry about, including the defendant was here illegally, but the Jury made the right call. The prosecutor VASTLY over-reached in calling it "Murder", and it blew up in his face.


Bull! The prosecutor knew exactly what he was doing. He was hoping for a hung jury or mistrial for appearances. Well, Christmas came early and he's not going to lose any sleep over it.
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#23 User is offline   Dean Adam Smithee 

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Posted 01 December 2017 - 09:54 AM

View PostItalian Biker, on 01 December 2017 - 08:43 AM, said:

The fact that involuntary manslaughter didn't even get a guilty verdict kind of makes me believe that the prosecution purposely threw the case. Now I don't know anything about the prosecutor, but my guess is that he's a liberal. The fact that Zarate's history was ordered as not admissable, and the prosecution just bent over and didn't fight for it is another indication that they purposely threw the case.


If the prosecutor 'threw' the case, it was by throwing everything at the wall like a plate of spaghetti just to see if something would stick. And, more often than not, juries throw it right back in the prosecutors face, because it's asking TOO MUCH of the jury.

It's human nature: The Prosecutor is basically telling the jury, "Gee, guys, I don't know what he should have been charged with. YOU figure it out." And the jury responds with, "Well, if YOU don't know then how should WE? Go F--- yourself." Human Nature 101: People respond poorly if they feel like they're being 'used', especially if they're being 'used' as a shield to cover someone else's not doing their own job.

There's NO WAY this was "Murder". Not any shade of "Murder". Had he been charged with (just) Manslaughter, it might have been different.
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#24 User is offline   Dutch13 

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Posted 01 December 2017 - 10:02 AM

View Postgravelrash, on 01 December 2017 - 09:48 AM, said:

I wonder if the prosecution trumped the charges of "premeditated murder" knowing full well by law that it wouldn't stick.

As for the defense of "accidentally discharging"? That's something a 5 or 10 year old who found daddy's gun might do. The defendant is a 45 year-old man. My age. What's his excuse? Oh, he's a criminal alien who can barely speak English? I didn't know that proficiency in the language was requisite from knowing right from wrong.

And whatever happened to the FBI agent who left the gun in the car in the first place? Does that moron still have a job? Or was he issued a reprimand and a two-day suspension with pay?

No, this is BS and you full well know it. The reason that the defense didn't enter a plea bargain is because they knew that the prosecution was going to play the game so this <censored>er would walk free.

The prosecutors, the defense, and the jurors... may they all die of something that is slow, painful, inoperable, and incurable. <censored> California.

From the article I linked too earlier:




Quote


It’s an elite handgun intended for law enforcement and military personnel who may need to fire it with split second notice. Hence, it has a hair trigger in single-action mode. Even among well-trained users, it has a lengthy history of accidental discharges.

Most police agencies don’t make records public, but those that do reveal disturbing data. In a four-year period (2012-2015), the New York City Police Department reported 54 accidental firearm discharges, 10 involving SIG Sauers. Los Angeles County reported more than 80 accidental discharges between 2010 and 2015, five involving SIG Sauers. From 2005 to January 2011, the San Francisco Police Department reported 29 accidental discharges (a time when it issued SIG Sauers as its primary sidearm)…

The SIG Sauer in Lopez Sanchez’s case has three features prone to accidents:

1. No safety lever, making it perpetually ready for firing.
2. Manufacturer-issued trigger pull of 4.4 pounds of force (in single-action mode), which is among the lightest on the market.
3. An unlabeled decocking lever despite being essential to disengage the single-action mode. (The SIG Sauer safety manual urges “DO NOT THUMB THE HAMMER DOWN the consequences can be serious injury or death — only and ALWAYS use the decocking lever.”)

New York City requires officers using SIG Sauers to disable its single-action function because the hair trigger is too dangerous. Those using the gun can only do so in double-action mode, which has a 10-pound trigger pull.

Still capable of accidentally discharging, it provides some modicum of greater safety. However, single-action was not disabled on the handgun involved in this case, which Lopez Sanchez says he found wrapped in a T-shirt, thereby concealing its danger.





Quote

So, we have a defendant with zero connection to Steinle. He had a history of drug crimes but no known violent crimes. The bullet that killed Steinle hit the ground and then ricocheted upwards. There was a video possibly showing another group of people disposing of the gun where Garcia Zarate said he found it.

Reviewing the SIG Sauer website shows these handguns cost $1,000 or more. You can see how defense counsel could easily argue that a homeless illegal immigrant would be unfamiliar with one.

All of this adds up to the defense presenting a plausible explanation for how Garcia Zarate could have fired the gun and killed Steinle by accident. That’s reasonable doubt.










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#25 User is offline   Ladybird 

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Posted 01 December 2017 - 10:15 AM

View PostDean Adam Smithee, on 01 December 2017 - 09:39 AM, said:

I agree entirely, and Neal Boortz covered it on his radio show this morning.

There's plenty of people that one should be angry about, including the defendant was here illegally, but the Jury made the right call. The prosecutor VASTLY over-reached in calling it "Murder", and it blew up in his face.

Wouldn’t be the first time, in a high profile case. It seems lately that is more the rule than the exception.
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Posted 01 December 2017 - 10:27 AM

View PostGertie Keddle, on 01 December 2017 - 07:03 AM, said:

Same jury, white guy, black victim. Thoughts on the outcome?

In the hypothetical that white perp gets off on a technicality, the Justice Dept would come back with a "deprivation of civil rights" case. Perhaps that's what Sessions is looking into.
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#27 User is offline   Rock N' Roll Right Winger 

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Posted 01 December 2017 - 10:28 AM

View PostDutch13, on 01 December 2017 - 10:02 AM, said:

From the article I linked too earlier:

All of that in the quote is pure bullshidt.

4.4 lbs is by no means a "hair trigger" on any firearm.

PERIOD.

I don't give a damn who argues that point because it's a flat out lie and anyone who tries to say that it is also a LIAR.

10 lb. trigger pull is also stupid :bs: because it's so damned stiff that the shooter flinches the pistol off target because of having to "milk the trigger" just to squeeze it hard enough to function.

There is no fault to that firearm and all of that argument is pure :bs:

It did not pick itself up, point itself and pull it's own trigger and it wasn't any damned accident that the trigger was pulled by the perp. The SOB meant to pull the trigger. PERIOD. The pistol did not malfunction. It did what it was designed to do. It won't fire unless the trigger is pulled all the way back to release and there is no other way that it can fire. PERIOD.

All legitimate accidental discharges are 99.9% of the time are the fault of the operator. Claiming that a lack of a safety lever is also pure :bs: because even then the pistol has to have the trigger pulled full travel to fire and does with the safety off.

The jury had the option to convict the low life on involuntary manslaughter and assault with a deadly weapon which he was blatantly obviously guilty as hell of with the given evidence. They did not.

Both the prosecutor and jury were complete clueless idiots.
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#28 User is offline   Rock N' Roll Right Winger 

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Posted 01 December 2017 - 10:31 AM

View PostDean Adam Smithee, on 01 December 2017 - 09:54 AM, said:

If the prosecutor 'threw' the case, it was by throwing everything at the wall like a plate of spaghetti just to see if something would stick. And, more often than not, juries throw it right back in the prosecutors face, because it's asking TOO MUCH of the jury.

It's human nature: The Prosecutor is basically telling the jury, "Gee, guys, I don't know what he should have been charged with. YOU figure it out." And the jury responds with, "Well, if YOU don't know then how should WE? Go F--- yourself." Human Nature 101: People respond poorly if they feel like they're being 'used', especially if they're being 'used' as a shield to cover someone else's not doing their own job.

There's NO WAY this was "Murder". Not any shade of "Murder". Had he been charged with (just) Manslaughter, it might have been different.

:yeahthat:

There is a lot of truth there.

The prosecutor obviously did a lousy job.

It's their job to prove it beyond a reasonable doubt (to a jury that probably had low IQ) and they failed miserably.

It was probably as you've suggested, a lazy assed incompetent prosecutor?

But again this is proggy occupied sanctuary city Kommiefornia?

The prosecutor probably meant for the perp to walk because he's an illegal and a felon which are desirable traits to the demoncraps there for their voting base.

This post has been edited by Rock N' Roll Right Winger: 01 December 2017 - 10:37 AM

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#29 User is offline   Rock N' Roll Right Winger 

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Posted 01 December 2017 - 10:37 AM

View Postgravelrash, on 01 December 2017 - 09:48 AM, said:

I wonder if the prosecution trumped the charges of "premeditated murder" knowing full well by law that it wouldn't stick.

As for the defense of "accidentally discharging"? That's something a 5 or 10 year old who found daddy's gun might do. The defendant is a 45 year-old man. My age. What's his excuse? Oh, he's a criminal alien who can barely speak English? I didn't know that proficiency in the language was requisite from knowing right from wrong.

And whatever happened to the FBI agent who left the gun in the car in the first place? Does that moron still have a job? Or was he issued a reprimand and a two-day suspension with pay?

No, this is BS and you full well know it. The reason that the defense didn't enter a plea bargain is because they knew that the prosecution was going to play the game so this <censored>er would walk free.

The prosecutors, the defense, and the jurors... may they all die of something that is slow, painful, inoperable, and incurable. <censored> California.


:yeahthat:

None of this surprises me.
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#30 User is offline   Noclevermoniker 

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Posted 01 December 2017 - 10:37 AM

View PostRock N, on 01 December 2017 - 10:28 AM, said:

All of that in the quote is pure bullshidt.

4.4 lbs is by no means a "hair trigger" on any firearm.

PERIOD.

I don't give a damn who argues that point because it's a flat out lie and anyone who tries to say that it is also a LIAR.

10 lb. trigger pull is also stupid :bs: because it's so damned stiff that the shooter flinches the pistol off target because of having to "milk the trigger" just to squeeze it hard enough to function.

There is no fault to that firearm and all of that argument is pure :bs:

It did not pick itself up, point itself and pull it's own trigger and it wasn't any damned accident that the trigger was pulled by the perp. The SOB meant to pull the trigger. PERIOD. The pistol did not malfunction. It did what it was designed to do. It won't fire unless the trigger is pulled all the way back to release and there is no other way that it can fire. PERIOD.

All legitimate accidental discharges are 99.9% of the time are the fault of the operator. Claiming that a lack of a safety lever is also pure :bs: because even then the pistol has to have the trigger pulled full travel to fire and does with the safety off.

The jury had the option to convict the low life on involuntary manslaughter and assault with a deadly weapon which he was blatantly obviously guilty as hell of with the given evidence. They did not.

Both the prosecutor and jury were complete clueless idiots.

NYPD requires 12lb trigger pulls. Bad idea, I know, but heavy trigger pulls are out there.

IMO 4 lb. trigger pull, or any weight can be a "hair trigger" if the travel is so short that merely engaging the trigger with your finger risks releasing the sear.

I also agree that the actor is responsible and at fault for the shooting, regardless of intent.
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#31 User is offline   Rock N' Roll Right Winger 

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Posted 01 December 2017 - 10:39 AM

View PostTaggart Transcontinental, on 01 December 2017 - 05:58 AM, said:

Oh and they are saying this verdict "proves" this was a tragic accident.

No it does not. It proves you can get 12 retarded people into a room and make them believe anything you tell them.

This proves it's a tragic accident like the OJ verdict proved OJ didn't murder them. Sorry it is just about a leftist jingoism. The belief that being a sanctuary city is more important than the people you represent.

When we deport this clown I say stuff a lo-jack so far up his rectum that he can never pass it out. That way we can track this scum and if he comes in again, deport him in a C-130 and kick him out at 30,000 feet. See if he can cross the border like that.

:clap:
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#32 User is offline   Rock N' Roll Right Winger 

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Posted 01 December 2017 - 10:41 AM

View PostGertie Keddle, on 01 December 2017 - 07:01 AM, said:

Obviously a jury of people who have never seen a gun in person and firmly believe that they just “go off” at random.

:yeahthat:

Most people are very ignorant of firearms, especially when it comes to their operation and trigger pull (hair trigger) issue.
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#33 User is offline   Rock N' Roll Right Winger 

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Posted 01 December 2017 - 10:42 AM

View PostItalian Biker, on 01 December 2017 - 08:43 AM, said:

The fact that involuntary manslaughter didn't even get a guilty verdict kind of makes me believe that the prosecution purposely threw the case. Now I don't know anything about the prosecutor, but my guess is that he's a liberal. The fact that Zarate's history was ordered as not admissable, and the prosecution just bent over and didn't fight for it is another indication that they purposely threw the case.

:exactly:
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#34 User is offline   Rock N' Roll Right Winger 

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Posted 01 December 2017 - 10:50 AM

View PostNoclevermoniker, on 01 December 2017 - 10:37 AM, said:

NYPD requires 12lb trigger pulls. Bad idea, I know, but heavy trigger pulls are out there.

IMO 4 lb. trigger pull, or any weight can be a "hair trigger" if the travel is so short that merely engaging the trigger with your finger risks releasing the sear.

I also agree that the actor is responsible and at fault for the shooting, regardless of intent.

Hence why we see so many shooting videos of the NYPD emptying their entire magazines just to hit the perp once.

Also fact is they have a much higher occurrence of shooting and hitting many innocent bystanders because of these rock hard triggers because they have to shoot so many rounds just to hit the target once because of the flinching/milking.

It's because slimy lawyers who have convinced ignorant jurors who know nothing about guns there in trials and lawsuits about "hair triggers" which have caused their police to have the stupid 10-12 lb trigger pull requirement. This is also why most guns out of the box from the factory have pretty stiff triggers (usually 5.5 lbs and more), because of fear of lawsuits/liability. They've argued that fear/adrenaline makes the trigger suddenly become a hair trigger too which is also an argument that I don't buy. Even when shaking in fear for one's life a 10-12 lb trigger still makes one flinch/milk the handgun and miss even more.

Trigger pull weight dramatically affects accuracy especially on handguns, hence why competition shooters and the more "elite" law enforcement agencies have their trigger pulls lightened/reduced.

A 4 lb trigger will not go off by merely touching the trigger with a bare finger, especially on a DA trigger type/striker fired pistol that has a long trigger pull like a Glock, Springfield, or certain Sigs and S&Ws. With a gloved finger it's always easier to pull to release because of the dulled/padded sensation of the trigger contact.

Now when you get to 2.5 lbs. or less, now that's where you really cross over into that "hair trigger" threshold on a handgun.

My competition handguns have 1.5 to 1.75 lb. pulls shooting single action and 3 on double.

My competition rifles all have 1.5 to 1.75 lb. pulls.

Very little to no trigger creep and they break crisply like a glass rod and you can feel the trigger with your finger the whole way.

You can drop them, bang them etc. and they do not accidentally go off.

This post has been edited by Rock N' Roll Right Winger: 01 December 2017 - 11:24 AM

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#35 User is offline   Dean Adam Smithee 

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Posted 01 December 2017 - 10:54 AM

I think @AG_Conservative says it most succinctly on twitter: [emphasis mine]

@AG_Conservative
All of these things can be true:
1) Sanctuary cities are outrageous and needlessly endanger Americans.
2) Illegal immigration is a real problem.
3) Steinle case was wrongly politicized, which made justice harder to obtain.
4) Prosecutors royally botched the case by overcharging

-------------------------
@AG_Conservative
There is not one sane jury in the country that would have convicted of 1st degree murder based on the facts in the case. Overcharging also makes it harder for jury to convict of lesser charges and the politics definitely contributed to that.

------------------------

@SupX
2h2 hours ago

Why does overcharging making it harder to convict of lesser charges?...

------------------------

@AG_Conservative
2h2 hours ago

Because it changes the elements of the case that the prosecutors focus on proving so they may not even address the elements needed for the lesser charge. Basically puts it on the jury to connect the dots, but that's not their job.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------


THAT, in a nutshell, is the problem with "overcharging".

To prove "Murder" you've got to convince a jury that it WASN'T (just) manslaughter. How then, can you reasonably expect the jury to convict on what the prosecutor himself just spent the entire trial try to demonstrate WASN'T?".

The last bit about "it's not the jury's job" goes directly to what I posted earlier. It's the prosecutor's job to define the crime and then build each element to a conclusion; It's the jury's job to then say "Yes" or "No". Anytime you expect more than that from a jury it's likely to blow up in your face.

It's the KISS principle: "Keep It Simple, Stupid". (Or, if you're in the Navy, Keep It Simple for Sailors.")
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#36 User is offline   Taggart Transcontinental 

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Posted 01 December 2017 - 11:23 AM

View PostDutch13, on 01 December 2017 - 07:43 AM, said:

He was found guilty of the crimes he was guilty of. The prosecutor made a huge error in trying to prosecute an accidental shooting as a premeditated murder......unless he intended a richochet to hit the target it did.

The guy never should have been in the US and was at fault for her death, but there is more than just Sean Hannity's radio show given to the jury as evidence. All the jury needed was reasonable doubt, and they had that based on evidence presented by the defense.
Here is an article, from the right, about the trial: https://www.redstate...e-steinle-case/


Sorry Dutch it wasn't an accidental shooting, he originally copped to the murder, then changed his story to shooting seals, then the lawyer changed it again to he picked up the weapon and it went off. You believe what you want but it's all crap.

Have you ever fired or owned a SIG? I own 5 of them. None of them have went off accidentally in over 7 years of ownership. The weapon is DA/SA Double Action/Single Action. You do not carry the weapon cocked, you carry it in the safe configuration which requires about 10lbs and about 3/4 of an inch of travel on the trigger to fire the weapon. This weapon did not accidentally go off.

Secondly, with a 10lb trigger pull in DA mode it is likely that a person unfamiliar with how to use the weapon would shoot low and strike the ground, short of the target depending on the range of the shot. Look at New York PD, those clowns shoot more passerby's than they do targets. 10-12lb trigger pulls are crazy.

I do agree that prosecutors had their head up their butts. When I charge someone with a crime as a LEO, I look for the crime most close to what the person did. If they were DUI, then that's it I charge them with DUI 3rd. I don't try and get them for multiple counts, the prosecutor can try that if he needs to. I just need them off the street.

Regardless of all this claptrap.

What is not an accident is had San Francisco complied with the law, she would be alive today. He would not be in the US or working to get back in the US again and we would be short one illegal that obviously had a great job of sitting around doing nothing in the US.
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#37 User is offline   Taggart Transcontinental 

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Posted 01 December 2017 - 11:24 AM

View PostDutch13, on 01 December 2017 - 07:49 AM, said:

I have never understood why every single terrorist EVER released from Gitmo wasn't treated the same way. You revert to terrorism, the missile headed your way has a nice beacon to home in on.


Concur completely, you tell the leftists that you released them. Fly them home on a C-130 and somewhere over the atlantic, you lose track of their activities and they "fall" out. Oops.
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#38 User is offline   Rock N' Roll Right Winger 

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Posted 01 December 2017 - 11:27 AM

View PostTaggart Transcontinental, on 01 December 2017 - 11:23 AM, said:

Sorry Dutch it wasn't an accidental shooting, he originally copped to the murder, then changed his story to shooting seals, then the lawyer changed it again to he picked up the weapon and it went off. You believe what you want but it's all crap.

Have you ever fired or owned a SIG? I own 5 of them. None of them have went off accidentally in over 7 years of ownership. The weapon is DA/SA Double Action/Single Action. You do not carry the weapon cocked, you carry it in the safe configuration which requires about 10lbs and about 3/4 of an inch of travel on the trigger to fire the weapon. This weapon did not accidentally go off.

Secondly, with a 10lb trigger pull in DA mode it is likely that a person unfamiliar with how to use the weapon would shoot low and strike the ground, short of the target depending on the range of the shot. Look at New York PD, those clowns shoot more passerby's than they do targets. 10-12lb trigger pulls are crazy.

I do agree that prosecutors had their head up their butts. When I charge someone with a crime as a LEO, I look for the crime most close to what the person did. If they were DUI, then that's it I charge them with DUI 3rd. I don't try and get them for multiple counts, the prosecutor can try that if he needs to. I just need them off the street.

Regardless of all this claptrap.

What is not an accident is had San Francisco complied with the law, she would be alive today. He would not be in the US or working to get back in the US again and we would be short one illegal that obviously had a great job of sitting around doing nothing in the US.

:yeahthat:

Word.
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#39 User is offline   Taggart Transcontinental 

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Posted 01 December 2017 - 11:27 AM

View PostDutch13, on 01 December 2017 - 09:31 AM, said:

I do not disagree with you about the involuntary manslaughter charge, but enough doubt was placed into the minds of the jury that they acquitted him. We talk about innocent until proven guilty all the time around here, and it was the prosecutor's job to prove guilt....he failed.

That said, he absolutely should not have been in the US and as soon as he finishes his sentence, he should be deported. The United States needs to pass Kate's Law. Rather than whine about the results, those up for election in 2018 need to make this front and center. Had Kate's Law been in place, this death (accidental or otherwise) would not have occurred at the hands of the 6 time offender.

We can argue about LEGAL immigration all you like, but we are going to begin to punish ILLEGAL immigration. Make some of these democrats up for re-election in 2018 from red states sh# or get off the pot.





And enough "doubt" was placed into the minds of the woman on the Jury in the case of that corrupt Senator (I forget the scumbag's name) that we have a mistrial there and they will decide if he is retried. There is no justice today. As LEO's say it's JUST US sometimes.
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#40 User is offline   Rock N' Roll Right Winger 

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Posted 01 December 2017 - 11:35 AM

View PostTaggart Transcontinental, on 01 December 2017 - 11:27 AM, said:

And enough "doubt" was placed into the minds of the woman on the Jury in the case of that corrupt Senator (I forget the scumbag's name) that we have a mistrial there and they will decide if he is retried. There is no justice today. As LEO's say it's JUST US sometimes.


Was it Gary Condit?

Reminds me of the Menendez brothers trial.

The women jurors wept and cried (and hung the jury) that the two brother murderers who shotgunned both of the parents to death should be let go because they didn't have any parents left. :nuts:

This post has been edited by Rock N' Roll Right Winger: 01 December 2017 - 11:36 AM

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