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Steinle Verdict (Merged) Kate Steinle trial: Garcia Zarate acquitted in San Francisco pier kill Rate Topic: -----

#41 User is offline   Taggart Transcontinental 

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Posted 01 December 2017 - 11:36 AM

View PostNoclevermoniker, on 01 December 2017 - 10:37 AM, said:

NYPD requires 12lb trigger pulls. Bad idea, I know, but heavy trigger pulls are out there.

IMO 4 lb. trigger pull, or any weight can be a "hair trigger" if the travel is so short that merely engaging the trigger with your finger risks releasing the sear.

I also agree that the actor is responsible and at fault for the shooting, regardless of intent.


I own about 18 different weapons, only 6 of them have safeties, 4lbs is not considered "Hair trigger" 2-3 is hair trigger. A standard Mil grade 1911 is 3-4 lbs in the locked and <censored> mode (only mode you can fire from) AR-15 trigger weight is 4-5lbs.

This weapon was not in the LEO's car in a locked and cocked status. When LEO's carry the SIG in any form 226 or 227 or M11 or what ever they chamber the weapon and de-<censored> it. That puts the trigger to about 10lbs and 3/4 inches of travel. It is not "hair Pinned" that is for second and third round accuracy.
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#42 User is offline   Taggart Transcontinental 

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Posted 01 December 2017 - 11:39 AM

View PostRock N, on 01 December 2017 - 11:35 AM, said:

Was it Gary Condit?

Reminds me of the Menendez brothers trial.

The women jurors wept and cried (and hung the jury) that the two brother murderers who shotgunned both of the parents to death should be let go because they didn't have any parents left. :nuts:


Senator Menendez, that clown got off because one juror hung. The other female democrat basically said on her way to vacation she will still vote for the scumbag.
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#43 User is offline   Noclevermoniker 

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Posted 01 December 2017 - 11:49 AM

View PostTaggart Transcontinental, on 01 December 2017 - 11:36 AM, said:

I own about 18 different weapons, only 6 of them have safeties, 4lbs is not considered "Hair trigger" 2-3 is hair trigger. A standard Mil grade 1911 is 3-4 lbs in the locked and <censored> mode (only mode you can fire from) AR-15 trigger weight is 4-5lbs.

This weapon was not in the LEO's car in a locked and cocked status. When LEO's carry the SIG in any form 226 or 227 or M11 or what ever they chamber the weapon and de-<censored> it. That puts the trigger to about 10lbs and 3/4 inches of travel. It is not "hair Pinned" that is for second and third round accuracy.

Ok, we can all count our pistols and wax eloquent about how much we know. Nobody knows what condition the weapon was left in the car. There's idiocy to spare, LEOs not excluded. Leaving it unsecured in an automobile is proof in this case.

Bottom like is that the actor was responsible for the death. Period. Prosecution for premeditated murder was a stretch from the get-go, unless the perp and victim had some sort of "history".
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#44 User is offline   Rock N' Roll Right Winger 

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Posted 01 December 2017 - 11:53 AM

View PostTaggart Transcontinental, on 01 December 2017 - 11:39 AM, said:

Senator Menendez, that clown got off because one juror hung. The other female democrat basically said on her way to vacation she will still vote for the scumbag.

Oh, that Menendez.

May be kin to the murdering two brothers?

Same screwy "logic" applied?
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#45 User is offline   Rock N' Roll Right Winger 

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Posted 01 December 2017 - 12:00 PM

View PostNoclevermoniker, on 01 December 2017 - 11:49 AM, said:

Ok, we can all count our pistols and wax eloquent about how much we know. Nobody knows what condition the weapon was left in the car. There's idiocy to spare, LEOs not excluded. Leaving it unsecured in an automobile is proof in this case.

Bottom like is that the actor was responsible for the death. Period. Prosecution for premeditated murder was a stretch from the get-go, unless the perp and victim had some sort of "history".

It doesn't matter what condition that the weapon was in and it does matter how much we know about pistols when it comes to the claims/excuses being made.

Yes, the scum bag had deliberately pulled the trigger and is 100% responsible for the death.

It was for certain reckless and deliberate that the pistol was discharged. Not an accident.

It wasn't pre-meditated to hit her, but it still did.

He's 100% guilty of involuntary manslaughter for sure and should have been convicted.
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#46 User is offline   gravelrash 

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Posted 01 December 2017 - 12:01 PM

View PostTaggart Transcontinental, on 01 December 2017 - 11:23 AM, said:

Sorry Dutch it wasn't an accidental shooting, he originally copped to the murder, then changed his story to shooting seals, then the lawyer changed it again to he picked up the weapon and it went off. You believe what you want but it's all crap.


If the POS had shot a seal instead of a human being, California would have already tried, convicted, and sentenced him to 100 consecutive life terms with no possibility of parole. The defense would have also copped a plea bargain.
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#47 User is offline   Dutch13 

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Posted 01 December 2017 - 12:19 PM

There is a lot of emotion out there about this case, but it boils down to the facts that were presented to the jury. The prosecutor knew it wasn't first or second degree murder, yet he chose to try and prosecute those crimes.

The defense attorney just had to create reasonable doubt and he was able to do that. The BLM officer whose gun was stolen and used said that when he loaded it, it was in single action. He normally put it into double action, but he couldn't remember doing so in this case.

If the prosecutor had singled in on involuntary manslaughter and focused on that, he probably would have gotten a conviction........but in the meantime, he would have been slaughtered on social media for failing to prosecute for murder.




At least this topic is distracting everyone from the General Flynn debacle.





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#48 User is offline   Taggart Transcontinental 

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Posted 01 December 2017 - 12:30 PM

View PostNoclevermoniker, on 01 December 2017 - 11:49 AM, said:

Ok, we can all count our pistols and wax eloquent about how much we know. Nobody knows what condition the weapon was left in the car. There's idiocy to spare, LEOs not excluded. Leaving it unsecured in an automobile is proof in this case.

Bottom like is that the actor was responsible for the death. Period. Prosecution for premeditated murder was a stretch from the get-go, unless the perp and victim had some sort of "history".


I am going to tell you something. Every police car I have been in has multiple weapons some firearms others not firearms. We have had vehicles broken into and had firearms stolen. It happens, and no the LEO isn't an idiot. Most people won't screw with a police car.

This post has been edited by Taggart Transcontinental: 01 December 2017 - 12:31 PM

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#49 User is offline   Taggart Transcontinental 

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Posted 01 December 2017 - 12:35 PM

View PostDutch13, on 01 December 2017 - 12:19 PM, said:

There is a lot of emotion out there about this case, but it boils down to the facts that were presented to the jury. The prosecutor knew it wasn't first or second degree murder, yet he chose to try and prosecute those crimes.

The defense attorney just had to create reasonable doubt and he was able to do that. The BLM officer whose gun was stolen and used said that when he loaded it, it was in single action. He normally put it into double action, but he couldn't remember doing so in this case.

If the prosecutor had singled in on involuntary manslaughter and focused on that, he probably would have gotten a conviction........but in the meantime, he would have been slaughtered on social media for failing to prosecute for murder.

At least this topic is distracting everyone from the General Flynn debacle.



The fact that he couldn't go on oath and say he put it in DA is just his unwillingness to get impeached. My H&K VP 9 when I put it in the holster is 100% loaded and ready period. I do not have a safety on the weapon. I know the condition it is IN the holster right now as I am typing this. I even know exactly how much ammunition is in the weapon and on my belt. (16 rds in the weapon and 30 more on the belt for a total of 46). Any LEO that cannot tell you the status of their weapons is not doing his job right. I can in fact tell you the status of every weapon that is in my arsenal. PERIOD.
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#50 User is offline   Italian Biker 

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Posted 01 December 2017 - 12:37 PM

View PostNoclevermoniker, on 01 December 2017 - 10:27 AM, said:

In the hypothetical that white perp gets off on a technicality, the Justice Dept would come back with a "deprivation of civil rights" case. Perhaps that's what Sessions is looking into.

I'm not a lawyer, but he was found innocent of manslaughter, murder, 1st and 2nd degree, and can't be tried on those again. But is not negligent homicide a legitimate charge that was not listed and therefore he could be prosecuted and maybe found guilty.
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#51 User is online   Dean Adam Smithee 

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Posted 01 December 2017 - 01:09 PM

View PostItalian Biker, on 01 December 2017 - 12:37 PM, said:

I'm not a lawyer, but he was found innocent of manslaughter, murder, 1st and 2nd degree, and can't be tried on those again. But is not negligent homicide a legitimate charge that was not listed and therefore he could be prosecuted and maybe found guilty.


No. In most places "negligent homicide" is a "lesser included offense" as part of manslaughter (and in some jurisdictions it's synonymous).

The 5th amendment precludes trying someone again for the same "offense", or set of actions. You can't get around that by applying a different name to the same set of actions.
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#52 User is offline   Dutch13 

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Posted 01 December 2017 - 01:16 PM

View PostTaggart Transcontinental, on 01 December 2017 - 12:35 PM, said:

The fact that he couldn't go on oath and say he put it in DA is just his unwillingness to get impeached. My H&K VP 9 when I put it in the holster is 100% loaded and ready period. I do not have a safety on the weapon. I know the condition it is IN the holster right now as I am typing this. I even know exactly how much ammunition is in the weapon and on my belt. (16 rds in the weapon and 30 more on the belt for a total of 46). Any LEO that cannot tell you the status of their weapons is not doing his job right. I can in fact tell you the status of every weapon that is in my arsenal. PERIOD.


I believe that.......which seems like it would have been easy for the officer who said he always deco-cked it to have said he did so in this case as well. There would be no one to dispute that fact except a criminal.

That said, regardless of the state in which he (or you) left your weapon, the criminal that stole it could have easily changed it and put it back into single action before planting it for a kid to find (why else would it have been left there).



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#53 User is offline   Taggart Transcontinental 

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Posted 01 December 2017 - 02:17 PM

View Postgravelrash, on 01 December 2017 - 12:01 PM, said:

If the POS had shot a seal instead of a human being, California would have already tried, convicted, and sentenced him to 100 consecutive life terms with no possibility of parole. The defense would have also copped a plea bargain.


Oh and by the way in California the CAL SCO stated back in 1994 that the act of pulling the trigger in a public space is ground for a murder conviction. Secondly the prosecution brought no as in ZERO firearms experts in to demonstrate there is no way in hell you can step on a SIG and get it to fire. EVEN RAPPED IN A SHIRT.
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#54 User is offline   Taggart Transcontinental 

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Posted 01 December 2017 - 02:18 PM

View PostDutch13, on 01 December 2017 - 01:16 PM, said:

I believe that.......which seems like it would have been easy for the officer who said he always deco-cked it to have said he did so in this case as well. There would be no one to dispute that fact except a criminal.

That said, regardless of the state in which he (or you) left your weapon, the criminal that stole it could have easily changed it and put it back into single action before planting it for a kid to find (why else would it have been left there).




I am fully convinced HE's the thief that broke into the vehicle.
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#55 User is online   zurg 

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Posted 01 December 2017 - 02:21 PM

If you find a gun lying around that you didn't try to steal, why would you pick it up and fire it? More importantly, why is that a forgivable accident if someone dies as a result?
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#56 User is offline   Taggart Transcontinental 

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Posted 01 December 2017 - 02:36 PM

View Postzurg, on 01 December 2017 - 02:21 PM, said:

If you find a gun lying around that you didn't try to steal, why would you pick it up and fire it? More importantly, why is that a forgivable accident if someone dies as a result?


According to California Law it's not. This case was thrown by the prosecution. He's going to get owned in Federal Court though.
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#57 User is online   Dean Adam Smithee 

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Posted 01 December 2017 - 03:32 PM

View Postzurg, on 01 December 2017 - 02:21 PM, said:

If you find a gun lying around that you didn't try to steal, why would you pick it up and fire it? More importantly, why is that a forgivable accident if someone dies as a result?


Problem is, what do you call it when that happens?

To the extent that I understand CA law, and the facts of the case, *I'D* call the "voluntary manslaughter" (CA Penal Code 192a) Which has two elements:

  • A deliberate action, either in the heat of the moment OR in criminal recklesssness, something beyond ordinary negligence, AND

  • Someone dies.


But that was the one choice the Jury DIDN'T have.

EtA: I could see giving the jury a choice between Murder 1, Murder 2, and Vol Man; They're all, in a sense, part of the same "spectrum": A deliberate action by one party, and another party ends up dead; The only question for the jury is the degree of intent and/or premeditation and/or forseeability that a person would die.

Invol Man is a different animal that is, in a way, mutually exclusive with the above spectrum. It is mutually exclusive in the sense that a key element of proving Murder/Vol Man is establish that it WASN'T involuntary (And Vice Versa).

I don't know what was in the prosecutor's mind. EITHER he deliberately "threw it" by giving the jury (only) three choices, none of which fit, OR he tried to shoot the moon by over-reaching and ended up screwing the pooch.

I could see either being plausible. Had the prosecutor "won" a Murder conviction, it's the sort of thing a political career could be based on as the real "Law and Order" "Get tough" candidate. Sometimes people, even prosecutors, get so blinded by the future that they screw up the present.

This post has been edited by Dean Adam Smithee: 01 December 2017 - 05:23 PM

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#58 User is offline   Dutch13 

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Posted 01 December 2017 - 03:50 PM

View Postzurg, on 01 December 2017 - 02:21 PM, said:

If you find a gun lying around that you didn't try to steal, why would you pick it up and fire it? More importantly, why is that a forgivable accident if someone dies as a result?


The defense argued that he picked up something wrapped in a shirt and it fired when the shirt got caught on the trigger. The prosecution tried to get him for pre-meditated murder......from a shot that ricocheted off the ground. Once again, we are back to the prosecution making bad choices (it goes without saying that the defendant made bad choices).
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#59 User is offline   Italian Biker 

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Posted 01 December 2017 - 04:43 PM

View PostDean Adam Smithee, on 01 December 2017 - 01:09 PM, said:


The 5th amendment precludes trying someone again for the same "offense", or set of actions. You can't get around that by applying a different name to the same set of actions.

yes, I'm aware of this? But do they each have their own specific legal definition, is negligent homicide and manslaughter the same? If not the same by legal definition, then I can't see how the 5th applies. Why can't this scumbag be tried on a technicality such as this since scumbags have used technicalities for years to get free.
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#60 User is offline   firecoco 

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Posted 01 December 2017 - 04:58 PM

DOJ is demanding custody of this POS

They want to put him in federal prison
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