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#1 User is offline   Coach 

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Posted 12 March 2019 - 01:47 PM

What happens when you put a sophisticated machine in the hands of amateurs ? They wreck it. So what do the modern Luddites do ? They attack the machine and its maker, especially when the manufacturer is a powerhouse of free enterprise. That is exactly what is sweeping the world in reaction to the crash of two 737 Max Boeing airliners.

Damn I hate ignorance and venality.
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#2 User is offline   Junto 

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Posted 12 March 2019 - 02:01 PM

The conspiracy circles think that this was downed by bad actors intentionally (hacked) to bring down Boeing or serve as a warning after Trump announced a $20 billion deal with Vietnam and Boeing after the North Korea summit.


(ETA - clarity)

This post has been edited by Junto: 12 March 2019 - 02:11 PM

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#3 User is online   NH Populist 

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Posted 12 March 2019 - 02:12 PM

I don't know much about this other than Boeing's been put in a tough spot, their orders and production schedule are for building more of the 737 Max. It's hard to imagine with Boeing's experience in building jetliners, something like this is even possible...
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#4 User is online   Rock N' Roll Right Winger 

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Posted 12 March 2019 - 03:45 PM

Take note of all of the "important UN people" who were on board that flight and were all killed?

Perhaps the deep state powers that be might have wanted them out of the way and had rigged the plane to crash?

There is that plausible motive.
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#5 User is online   SARGE 

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Posted 12 March 2019 - 04:14 PM

Is it the aircraft, or is it poorly trained/incompetent pilots?
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#6 User is offline   oki 

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Posted 12 March 2019 - 04:15 PM

Soooo.... let me get this straight.

We will sell/allow sale of advanced aircraft(be it airliners) to nations and airlines but NOT ALLOW them to operate said air craft over our own skies due to their records in regards to safety, training and or maintenance.
What could possibly go wrong?

It's like selling anyone and everyone with the cash a high performance sports car but saying there is a problem with the car when only the people who can drive it on the back roads are crashing it. Never mind the fact that no one else seems to be crashing the car.

Not saying that it isn't a life threatening glitch, just saying that if you can't trust the airline or pilots in our skies to fly or properly maintain the things, what makes you think it will be any different in their own nations?

Oki
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#7 User is offline   Severian 

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Posted 12 March 2019 - 04:37 PM

Witnesses said it was trailing white smoke and even debris they called "papers and clothing" immediately before crashing. So, who knows, bomb, control system failure, even after the official story is in I'm no longer sure I believe official stories anymore.
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#8 User is offline   Taggart Transcontinental 

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Posted 12 March 2019 - 05:31 PM

View PostCoach, on 12 March 2019 - 01:47 PM, said:

What happens when you put a sophisticated machine in the hands of amateurs ? They wreck it. So what do the modern Luddites do ? They attack the machine and its maker, especially when the manufacturer is a powerhouse of free enterprise. That is exactly what is sweeping the world in reaction to the crash of two 737 Max Boeing airliners.

Damn I hate ignorance and venality.


Notice Britain and China stopped use. China produces the A-320 and it is in direct competition with the 737 Max, so of course they want to harm Boeing.
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#9 User is offline   Magic Rat 

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Posted 12 March 2019 - 05:41 PM

View PostRock N, on 12 March 2019 - 03:45 PM, said:

Take note of all of the "important UN people" who were on board that flight and were all killed?

Perhaps the deep state powers that be might have wanted them out of the way and had rigged the plane to crash?

There is that plausible motive.

I'm sure that's it.
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#10 User is offline   Taggart Transcontinental 

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Posted 12 March 2019 - 05:51 PM

View PostSARGE, on 12 March 2019 - 04:14 PM, said:

Is it the aircraft, or is it poorly trained/incompetent pilots?


Ethopian Airlines is actually not a bad airline. They in fact have a lot of good expat pilots (US/Brit?Aus and Euro's) as well as they are now building their own skilled flight crews inside the nation.

http://www.askthepil...airline-safety/

Quote

Or how about Ethiopian Airlines? Here is another impoverished country surrounded by rugged terrain. Yet the record of its national carrier three fatal events, one of them a hijacking, in over seventy years of operation is exceptional. Ethiopian is one of the proudest and arguably one of the safest airlines in the world.


They have had two crashes, is it Boeing, EA or someone creating an opportunity because they are there and have access to a relatively poorly guarded airfield and the remoteness of a crash may make it difficult to do a proper forensic search of the wreck. I don't know, but I do know EA isn't a bad airline. When you see 737's falling out of the sky like ripened fruit it's time to take notice. There are quite a few out there, and this is a lot of money.



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#11 User is offline   Taggart Transcontinental 

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Posted 12 March 2019 - 07:01 PM

View PostSeverian, on 12 March 2019 - 04:37 PM, said:

Witnesses said it was trailing white smoke and even debris they called "papers and clothing" immediately before crashing. So, who knows, bomb, control system failure, even after the official story is in I'm no longer sure I believe official stories anymore.


System failure will not cause things to be trailing out of it. That sounds like a bomb in the aft luggage compartment.
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#12 User is offline   oki 

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Posted 12 March 2019 - 08:28 PM

View PostTaggart Transcontinental, on 12 March 2019 - 07:01 PM, said:

System failure will not cause things to be trailing out of it. That sounds like a bomb in the aft luggage compartment.



Or maybe transporting forbidden cargo? Two things improperly stored that mixed? Certain batteries under the right conditions can experience a massive hydrogen build up and then of coarse boom. IE Gel Cell's (industrial at least) WILL build pressure over time unless the process is done to relieve them. That build up is essentially hydrogen gas. Stick old or used batteries that did not have the pressure released prior to going into a whare house, truck then cargo hold, sit on a run way, even this time of the year and they could very well build just enough pressure. I wish I could find it but I have seen photos of those suckers exploding with enough force to blow a heavy steel door right of the hinges. If they can do that they can certainly cause enough structural damage to an aircraft to bring it down.

But, this is just me offering one plausible explanation that doesn't involve malicious intent, just stupidity.

Oki
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#13 User is online   Rock N' Roll Right Winger 

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Posted 12 March 2019 - 09:01 PM

View PostTaggart Transcontinental, on 12 March 2019 - 07:01 PM, said:

System failure will not cause things to be trailing out of it. That sounds like a bomb in the aft luggage compartment.

My thoughts as well.
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#14 User is offline   AntiObama 

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Posted 12 March 2019 - 09:47 PM

I think what is happening with the 737 MAX 8 is pilots overriding the system because they don't understand the speed and flap position or something like that and they are crashing the planes because of a lack of training. They're use to flying the old smaller 737. They need training.
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#15 User is offline   linewinder 

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Posted 12 March 2019 - 10:00 PM

View PostTaggart Transcontinental, on 12 March 2019 - 07:01 PM, said:

System failure will not cause things to be trailing out of it. That sounds like a bomb in the aft luggage compartment.


26-year-old Turn Buzuna, who lives about 300 meters from the crash site, says he heard a "rattling noise". According to Reuters, four witnesses reported an unusual, loud sound. Six people saw smoke on the tail.
One of those witnesses was 47 years old Malka Galato, the farmer on whose field the plane crashed. He reported smoke and sparks from the plane.

Maybe an engine out of balance? Possibility of engine failure? Didn't a 737 chunk a fan blade a while back? (although I don't think it was a -8) Bird strike, FOD?

We can guess all sorts of scenerios.
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#16 User is offline   Taggart Transcontinental 

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Posted 12 March 2019 - 11:58 PM

View Postoki, on 12 March 2019 - 08:28 PM, said:

Or maybe transporting forbidden cargo? Two things improperly stored that mixed? Certain batteries under the right conditions can experience a massive hydrogen build up and then of coarse boom. IE Gel Cell's (industrial at least) WILL build pressure over time unless the process is done to relieve them. That build up is essentially hydrogen gas. Stick old or used batteries that did not have the pressure released prior to going into a whare house, truck then cargo hold, sit on a run way, even this time of the year and they could very well build just enough pressure. I wish I could find it but I have seen photos of those suckers exploding with enough force to blow a heavy steel door right of the hinges. If they can do that they can certainly cause enough structural damage to an aircraft to bring it down.

But, this is just me offering one plausible explanation that doesn't involve malicious intent, just stupidity.

Oki


True that has happened before and it's not out of the realm of possibility. Who knows what will come out of it.
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#17 User is offline   Taggart Transcontinental 

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Posted 13 March 2019 - 12:05 AM

View Postlinewinder, on 12 March 2019 - 10:00 PM, said:

26-year-old Turn Buzuna, who lives about 300 meters from the crash site, says he heard a "rattling noise". According to Reuters, four witnesses reported an unusual, loud sound. Six people saw smoke on the tail.
One of those witnesses was 47 years old Malka Galato, the farmer on whose field the plane crashed. He reported smoke and sparks from the plane.

Maybe an engine out of balance? Possibility of engine failure? Didn't a 737 chunk a fan blade a while back? (although I don't think it was a -8) Bird strike, FOD?

We can guess all sorts of scenerios.


Tossing a blade in an airplane means you lose that engine, unless it happens to ninja strike other critical systems. If above V1 you rotate and climb out single engine. If not you slam on the brakes. V1 is based on aircraft weight and available runway to make a stop by. So it's calculated by stopping distance required. The 737 is a dual engine bird that is safe to fly over water, meaning it has good Single Engine capability. Losing one engine is a snore fest in these modern aircraft. In fact for the most part if I am above rotation speed it's even a snore fest in a 1975 Seminole.
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#18 User is offline   Dean Adam Smithee 

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Posted 13 March 2019 - 05:41 AM

View PostSARGE, on 12 March 2019 - 04:14 PM, said:

Is it the aircraft, or is it poorly trained/incompetent pilots?



Pilots complained at least 5 times about Boeing 737 MAX problems, records show

By KATHRYN A. WOLFE
03/12/2019 08:05 PM EDT


Politico story

Pilots in the U.S. complained at least 5 times in recent months about problems controlling their Boeing 737 MAX 8 jets during critical moments of flight, federal records show, adding to questions raised by deadly crashes involving that model of jetliner in Ethiopia and Indonesia.

Some of the incidents appear to involve the same anti-stall system that has come up as a potential cause of October's Indonesia crash
, according to a review of a Federal Aviation Administration incident database that lets pilots self-report trouble. Investigators have not said whether the same technology had emerged as a possible cause of Sunday's crash in Ethiopia, although both involved airliners that mysteriously plunged to the ground minutes after takeoff.

For one U.S. incident in November 2018, a commercial airline pilot reported that during takeoff, the autopilot was engaged and "within two to three seconds the aircraft pitched nose down," in a manner steep enough to trigger the plane's warning system, which sounded "Don't sink, don't sink!"

After the autopilot was disengaged, the plane climbed as normal, according to the report...

--------------------------------------

I can't speak for the pilots in the Ethiopian or Indonesian crashes... but if US pilots are complaining? I do know that at least here in the US it takes a considerable amount of experience before one is allowed to fly a plane like a 737.

This post has been edited by Dean Adam Smithee: 13 March 2019 - 05:42 AM

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#19 User is offline   Tea Party Hooligan 

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Posted 13 March 2019 - 07:16 AM

View PostSARGE, on 12 March 2019 - 04:14 PM, said:

Is it the aircraft, or is it poorly trained/incompetent pilots?



Don't forget maintenance. That's why American based airlines are still flying theirs; they have highly trained pilots and the FAA knows the skill level. The co-pilot of the Ethiopian aircraft had 250 hours of flight time. Not 250 hours of flight time in type, but 250 hours of total flight time. He wouldn't have been qualified to sniff the co-pilot's seat in the US.
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#20 User is offline   oki 

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Posted 13 March 2019 - 08:36 AM

View PostTaggart Transcontinental, on 12 March 2019 - 11:58 PM, said:

True that has happened before and it's not out of the realm of possibility. Who knows what will come out of it.


Agreed, standards, rules enforcement and such are not the same in that part of the world as they are elsewhere.
A pay off here, a bribe there, label change of a package and someone simply looking the other way and stuff can easily get on a plane that's not supposed to. It's been a couple days know, Terrorists are usually to damn 'giddy' and 'proud' of their accomplishment that they wouldn't be strutting like pee <censored> over this and not having some announcement by know.

Hacking, extremely unlikely but no impossible. Long story short, if I am not mistaken even over land these birds are sending data to Satellites any time they are flying. The fact that aircraft have Wi Fi available to passengers could easily create a situation where a hacker can use it to hack the aircraft. Not necessarily the passenger, but someone working with a passenger to exploit a vulnerability or hole in the software or even hardware. Basically the person on board helps create a hole with someone on the ground, once they have established communication between each other the person on the ground can then try to first get into the planes wi fi for the customers then expand and back track to navigational and control. I say that because more than likely they are using the same satellite as for the flight data.
I just don't see a customer Wi Fi satellite, and a separate flight data satellite.

Oki
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