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#1 User is offline   Coach 

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Posted 09 May 2019 - 12:35 PM

Can anyone produce a single member of the NRA or a sane person who has carried out a mass shooting of innocent people.
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#2 User is offline   Dean Adam Smithee 

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Posted 09 May 2019 - 01:19 PM

View PostCoach, on 09 May 2019 - 12:35 PM, said:

Can anyone produce a single member of the NRA or a sane person who has carried out a mass shooting of innocent people.


Well, the NRA is a large organization with ~5 million members. The sheer numbers alone of ANY organization that size will inevitable include at least the occasional nutjob.

Two well known examples (sort of):

Timothy McVeigh had once been an NRA member, though wasn't still a member at the time of the OKC bombing.

Nikolas Cruz of the Stoneman-Douglas HS shooting in FL was *likely* a member. At the very least he was a member of the school's JROTC marksman team that was sponsored by the NRA. Much has was made over this by the media at the time: The NRA Spent $10,000 to Train Nikolas Cruz in 2016.
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#3 User is offline   Coach 

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Posted 09 May 2019 - 01:28 PM

View PostDean Adam Smithee, on 09 May 2019 - 01:19 PM, said:

Well, the NRA is a large organization with ~5 million members. The sheer numbers alone of ANY organization that size will inevitable include at least the occasional nutjob.

Two well known examples (sort of):

Timothy McVeigh had once been an NRA member, though wasn't still a member at the time of the OKC bombing.

Nikolas Cruz of the Stoneman-Douglas HS shooting in FL was *likely* a member. At the very least he was a member of the school's JROTC marksman team that was sponsored by the NRA. Much has was made over this by the media at the time: The NRA Spent $10,000 to Train Nikolas Cruz in 2016.



Sanity ?
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#4 User is offline   mjperry51 

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Posted 09 May 2019 - 02:05 PM

View PostDean Adam Smithee, on 09 May 2019 - 01:19 PM, said:

Timothy McVeigh had once been an NRA member, though wasn't still a member at the time of the OKC bombing.


McVeigh didn't shoot anyone -- he blew up a truck. . .
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#5 User is offline   oki 

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Posted 09 May 2019 - 02:14 PM

The NRA is the anti gun lefts boogeyman. Without the NRA they believe that people wouldn't have guns or at least we wouldn't be a gun culture. Well, if that was the case then all Gun owners would be NRA members and the NRA would be in the business of selling firearms. What these clowns never want to talk about is the relation of prescription meds and mass shooters. Guns OF ALL KINDS including the dreaded AR15 have been available to the public since the 1960's. Yet, school and even mass shootings are much much more recent. The whole downplaying of you didn't hear about it because there was no internet is utter B.S. If anything it would have still been a huge story in large part because as a society we where much more innocent. I know it did happen, but, even then it was directly between students or maybe a teacher. Not the indiscriminate shoot everyone horror we are seeing know.

These same people always talk about Gun violence, but yet when you ask will it get rid of violence in general you can't get a straight answer. Like magically removing firearms will stop mass killers or criminals from finding other ways. The old well if they don't have a gun they can't shoot anyone crap only removes a method, not the problem. Do these nut jobs have access to cars? Access to home improvement stores? IE what's to stop them from pulling a firearm and plowing through the crowd with a pick up truck? Or worse renting a larger vehicle? What's to stop them from going to a home improvement store buying materials to make pipe bombs and then either placing the devices in key places or braking classroom door windows and lobbing them in?

The only thing that will stop them is basically locking them up and not trying to dope the crazy out of people, much less thinking doping people up is the answer in the first damn place. These issues only started happening with the widespread use of psychotropic medications!

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#6 User is offline   BootsieBets 

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Posted 09 May 2019 - 03:05 PM

It needs to be said over and over and over again. We don’t have a gun problem, we have a people problem. Let’s face it, humans have always been pretty violent. Are we more violent now than say 100 years ago or 50 years ago? I have said before that when I was in high school here in good old “school shooting capital of the world” Colorado back in the early 70’s, we had of all things a rifle club. In suburban Southeast Denver. Can you imagine???? I remember seeing those guys going out to their cars to get the rifles and bring them back in through the hall where we had Home Ec and Sewing and Wood Shop, because the ROTC class was in the same hall and that was where the rifle club practiced. And not one of them ever shot anyone. Ever! At least not at school. So, something has changed. And it is not the availability of guns.
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#7 User is offline   Dean Adam Smithee 

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Posted 09 May 2019 - 03:18 PM

View PostBootsieBets, on 09 May 2019 - 03:05 PM, said:

It needs to be said over and over and over again. We don’t have a gun problem, we have a people problem. Let’s face it, humans have always been pretty violent. Are we more violent now than say 100 years ago or 50 years ago? I have said before that when I was in high school here in good old “school shooting capital of the world” Colorado back in the early 70’s, we had of all things a rifle club. In suburban Southeast Denver. Can you imagine???? I remember seeing those guys going out to their cars to get the rifles and bring them back in through the hall where we had Home Ec and Sewing and Wood Shop, because the ROTC class was in the same hall and that was where the rifle club practiced. And not one of them ever shot anyone. Ever! At least not at school. So, something has changed. And it is not the availability of guns.


IMHO what changed was the left "Demonizing" guns. HS in Indiana in the '70s we didn't have JROTC at our school, but it wan't unusual to see rifles or shotguns in the back of pickup trucks in the parking lot. Especially during hunting season.

And it wasn't until JUST the last few years that Indiana had it's first school shooting.

The left constantly preaches that guns are 'Evil'. This plants the idea in the minds of people who want to DO evil that guns are the thing to do it with.
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#8 User is offline   oki 

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Posted 09 May 2019 - 03:52 PM

View PostDean Adam Smithee, on 09 May 2019 - 03:18 PM, said:

IMHO what changed was the left "Demonizing" guns. HS in Indiana in the '70s we didn't have JROTC at our school, but it wan't unusual to see rifles or shotguns in the back of pickup trucks in the parking lot. Especially during hunting season.

And it wasn't until JUST the last few years that Indiana had it's first school shooting.

The left constantly preaches that guns are 'Evil'. This plants the idea in the minds of people who want to DO evil that guns are the thing to do it with.



Same thing in North Dakota in the 80's and early 90's. Only saw two incidence per sei.
The first was a young man at my Middle School Shot himself in the foot while they where en route to go pheasant hunting(he recovered fully but never did live it down). The second was a kid who was about a year behind me who murdered his family, rode the bus with him so I remember the person.

https://www.kfyrtv.c...-411990575.html

This is an old link from 97' when the G.F. was still 'with him'.
https://www.latimes....5308-story.html



I also worked with his (know former) Girl Friends step sister as well. As the step sis cared deeply for her it was a really tough time.

Oki
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#9 User is offline   Severian 

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Posted 09 May 2019 - 04:06 PM

I suspect it's a confluence of many causes, prescription meds for psychological issues, attention that mass shooters get, and to a large extent a society and parents who don't teach their children how to accept the fact that you sometimes lose in life. A lifetime of expecting to get praised for even showing up leads to people who can't cope with losing or not getting their way. Life is full of wins and loses, and a lot of loses. You better know how to cope with loss.
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#10 User is offline   Big Dave 

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Posted 09 May 2019 - 04:23 PM

View PostSeverian, on 09 May 2019 - 04:06 PM, said:

I suspect it's a confluence of many causes, prescription meds for psychological issues, attention that mass shooters get, and to a large extent a society and parents who don't teach their children how to accept the fact that you sometimes lose in life. A lifetime of expecting to get praised for even showing up leads to people who can't cope with losing or not getting their way. Life is full of wins and loses, and a lot of loses. You better know how to cope with loss.

Evil has been from the beginning and will always be in this world. The worst school mass casualty is the still the Bath Massacre with 46 dead and 58 wounded and it was in 1927 and by an adult. The teen/young shooters have all had psyche issues and more and more live in avworld that conditions them to be brittle and lack impulse control. That's why the young black males of Chicago are killing each other off. :coffeenpc:
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#11 User is offline   Dean Adam Smithee 

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Posted 09 May 2019 - 06:03 PM

View PostBig Dave, on 09 May 2019 - 04:23 PM, said:

Evil has been from the beginning and will always be in this world. The worst school mass casualty is the still the Bath Massacre with 46 dead and 58 wounded and it was in 1927 and by an adult. The teen/young shooters have all had psyche issues and more and more live in avworld that conditions them to be brittle and lack impulse control. That's why the young black males of Chicago are killing each other off. :coffeenpc:


Is suppose that, one the one hand, anyone who does a mass shooting is by definition "Crazy". But, while I agree that the MAJORITY of teen/young shooters clearly had mental health issues, it's far from "all".

Some notable exceptions:

Dimitrios Pagourtzis, Santa Fe HS Texas 2018 (10 Dead).

Nicholas Poehl, one of Pagourtzis' attorneys, said that his client did not appear to have a history of mental health or legal issues."At this point, from everything we know, it doesn't appear like this kid had the kind of warning signs of someone that you would normally associate with someone involved in something like this," he said... Neighbors in nearby Alvin, Texas, say Pagourtzis grew up there on a tree-lined street. "Never seen a problem out of that child," said Richard Wallace, recalling how Pagourtzis would come around every year for Halloween.
- Source


Mitchell Johnson and Andrew Golden, Westside Middle School Arkansas 1998 (5 dead, 10 injured). No known mental health issues. The youngest perps to date (13 YO and 11 YO), and at the time the 2nd deadliest US school shooting.

In my best Paul Harvey voice "The rest of the story": As "Juveniles" at the time, both were released from the state charges at 18 and the federal (weapons) charges at 21. Johnson appears to have been on the straight-and-narrow ever since whilst Golden has been in and out of jail/prison ever since at currently might or might not be doing an 18 year stretch for some '08 charges (the articles I can find are unclear).

My best guess? Johnson "got religion" but Golden didn't. Johnson was raised as a baptist but Golden wasn't. Well, sometimes religion takes a while to sink in. Here's hoping that Johnson stays on the straight and narrow.


Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold, Columbine HS Colorado 1999 (13 dead, 24 injured). Behavioural issues, to be sure. Plus a history of run-ins with the law. But not necessarily "mental health" issues per se.
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#12 User is offline   Ladybird 

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Posted 09 May 2019 - 06:22 PM

Sanity is subjective, at least as far as our court system is concerned. Colin Ferguson (LIRR mass shooter) seemed like a paranoid maniac to me, but he was "fit" in the eyes of the courts.
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#13 User is offline   BootsieBets 

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Posted 09 May 2019 - 06:36 PM

View PostLadybird, on 09 May 2019 - 06:22 PM, said:

Sanity is subjective, at least as far as our court system is concerned. Colin Ferguson (LIRR mass shooter) seemed like a paranoid maniac to me, but he was "fit" in the eyes of the courts.

Legal insanity is different from what most people consider insane. Legal sanity is if you know what you are doing is wrong. A lot of people who do wrong, know they are doing something they shouldn't but they do it anyway. I think Ferguson was paranoid, but he wasn't insane.
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#14 User is offline   BootsieBets 

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Posted 09 May 2019 - 06:41 PM

View PostDean Adam Smithee, on 09 May 2019 - 06:03 PM, said:

Is suppose that, one the one hand, anyone who does a mass shooting is by definition "Crazy". But, while I agree that the MAJORITY of teen/young shooters clearly had mental health issues, it's far from "all".


Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold, Columbine HS Colorado 1999 (13 dead, 24 injured). Behavioural issues, to be sure. Plus a history of run-ins with the law. But not necessarily "mental health" issues per se.

I guess it depends on what is consider mental illness. If you've seen their “Basement Tapes” Harris and Klebold are a couple of pretty whacked out kids. Harris was probably psychopathic and he thought of others as inferior beings. Klebold was depressed and most likely was psychotic. They fed off each other and made each of their respective problems worse. They were going to “right the wrongs” done to them, whatever they thought those were.

So normal people don’t go into a school or a store or wherever with a gun and start shooting people. If you believe in evil you can say they are evil. If not, then there is an explanation that includes mental defect of some sort because people who are mentally healthy and well adjusted don’t want to kill their fellow human beings.
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#15 User is offline   Coach 

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Posted 10 May 2019 - 12:38 PM

Turns out a parent warned about the drug culture and even predicted a possible violent action was coming. School personnel didn't just ignore it they filed a defamation law suit against the parent. The Valentines Day shooting in Broward County took place with the same kind of lead up. Any competent and conscience school official knows what is going on in the school where they work. The sad fact is that much of our public school culture is corrupt, dangerous and cowardly. The current shooters are bullies, gender confused and spiritually bankrupt.

Reality dominates everything and always has predictable outcomes. We are reaping what has been sown.

The Rabbi who spoke in the Rose Garden last week nailed it and it doesn't have anything to do with gun laws.
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#16 User is offline   Taggart Transcontinental 

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Posted 10 May 2019 - 12:51 PM

View PostCoach, on 09 May 2019 - 12:35 PM, said:

Can anyone produce a single member of the NRA or a sane person who has carried out a mass shooting of innocent people.


That's not true. Guns are evil, they are possessed by evil spirits and those evil spirits make the guns kill people, the person holding the gun was possessed by that evil spirit and made them kill!
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#17 User is offline   Taggart Transcontinental 

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Posted 10 May 2019 - 12:53 PM

View Postmjperry51, on 09 May 2019 - 02:05 PM, said:

McVeigh didn't shoot anyone -- he blew up a truck. . .


He would have had to been the charter member of the NTBA (National Truck Bomb Association). Fighting for the 1st and 2nd Amendment rights of truck bombers. (The right to protest with truck bombs and the right to arm trucks with bombs).
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#18 User is offline   Taggart Transcontinental 

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Posted 10 May 2019 - 12:54 PM

View PostBootsieBets, on 09 May 2019 - 03:05 PM, said:

It needs to be said over and over and over again. We don't have a gun problem, we have a people problem. Let's face it, humans have always been pretty violent. Are we more violent now than say 100 years ago or 50 years ago? I have said before that when I was in high school here in good old "school shooting capital of the world" Colorado back in the early 70's, we had of all things a rifle club. In suburban Southeast Denver. Can you imagine???? I remember seeing those guys going out to their cars to get the rifles and bring them back in through the hall where we had Home Ec and Sewing and Wood Shop, because the ROTC class was in the same hall and that was where the rifle club practiced. And not one of them ever shot anyone. Ever! At least not at school. So, something has changed. And it is not the availability of guns.


It's a well known fact that Ghengis Khan was using AR-15's to cut down all those villages....
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#19 User is offline   Taggart Transcontinental 

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Posted 10 May 2019 - 01:09 PM

View PostLadybird, on 09 May 2019 - 06:22 PM, said:

Sanity is subjective, at least as far as our court system is concerned. Colin Ferguson (LIRR mass shooter) seemed like a paranoid maniac to me, but he was "fit" in the eyes of the courts.


No actually sanity is not subjective. We used to have reams of information on normal according to the constructs of our society. Bringing in a "savage" would obviously not indicate insanity but conditioning to what is correct in our society. But upbringing of individuals into our society would indicate taboos and norms expected of people.

Peeing and pooing in the streets would indicate less sane activity, now it is normal in marxist controlled populations centers. That's not because people have become insane as much as marxists have created the conditions to allow lack of judgement of those people that execute those acts. Want to solve the problem? Whack a few of them upside the head. Make there a sanction for their incorrect actions. Only someone like you can claim sanity as being subjective because the intent of your party is to create as much grey area as to sew chaos which forces people to clamor for more control.

In the eye's of our courts being able to stand trial is not subjective there is a standardized test for it and it can be easily grasped by law enforcement officers in the field. I can tell if someone is basically nuts or just stoned simply by monitoring their interactions for a few minutes.

For instance a woman I was taking an assault report from. Starts by explaining the assault as this guy bullying her, she and a friend challenge him and he chops her beer can in half then knocks her to the ground (assault). Ok fine, then she wanders off into space aliens and rape and other things that happened to her. Come back to the assault finish writing your statement. Squirrel.... her sons, florida and rape, etc. Finish with the statement.... OK, Some other randomness. Mary, what is your favorite drug? Oh it's meth.. When did you take it last? Ummmm... Ummm... (GO ON) yesterday... Ok Fine finish the statement. back and forth for over 1 hour to get a 4 sentence statement.

Is she crazy, or just doped up? The answer is both because of the damage wrought by Meth. See how easy it is?

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#20 User is offline   BootsieBets 

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Posted 10 May 2019 - 02:36 PM

View PostTaggart Transcontinental, on 10 May 2019 - 12:54 PM, said:

It's a well known fact that Ghengis Khan was using AR-15's to cut down all those villages....

Exactly! It wasn’t Khan because he was a bad guy, it was because he had those big, bad, scary guns!! :whistling:

So you see, if we could just get a huge gun-magnet and suck up every gun in the world, it would all be copacetic! No more fighting, no more hate, no more war, no mor...... – oh well.
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