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Ticked@TinselTown

Utah teacher could face disciplinary action after forcing boy to remov

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Wag-a-Muffin (D)

This is the second example this week, and many examples before, of a teacher being unaware of the religious or free speech rights of kids, even when they are students. I would say it is their training that is insufficient.

I've gotta disagree with you, here. I can point to multiple examples of religious freedoms being squashed by schools. (Valedictorians forbidden from even mentioning God/prayers forbidden before sporting events, etc.) I see more examples of schools banning religious expression--with the exception being Islam. (And I am one of the Muslim apologists here on RN. I just am mentioning what I have seen in the news.)

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Wag-a-Muffin (D)

From the article

William said he received candy and a handwritten note from his teacher that read: 'William, I am so sorry. I hope we can move things from here'.

 

It appears after the teacher was informed of her mistake, she apologized--a fact many of those who commented here on RN appeared to have missed after reading the article--or did they just read the headline? :coolshades:

 

(Yeah. I have to admit, many times I don't read the whole article but make an assumption from the headline.)

 

 

And if I liken this to me (and my teaching experience) I wonder what I would have done. (And I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.) And that does affect how I treat members of other faiths. In my family are horrendous examples of civil rights being violated, mob violence against my ancestors, etc. So I'm pretty careful not to mock someone's beliefs. The first time I saw someone participating in this ritual, I was in Vallerta el mercado (because they have the best produce locally.) And I noticed many shoppers with soot on their foreheads. I asked my husband and he replied, "it must be Ash Friday." I was OLD the first time I ever saw anything about this (either in person or on video.) But if you look at the photo of the young man in question, I can totally see why the teacher did what she did. (And seriously, after dealing with kids I would suspect any excuse they gave me.) Sorry/not sorry.

Edited by Wag-a-Muffin (D)

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Ladybird

I've gotta disagree with you, here. I can point to multiple examples of religious freedoms being squashed by schools. (Valedictorians forbidden from even mentioning God/prayers forbidden before sporting events, etc.) I see more examples of schools banning religious expression--with the exception being Islam. (And I am one of the Muslim apologists here on RN. I just am mentioning what I have seen in the news.)

 

It’s one thing to pray and practice your religion. It’s quite another to force a captive audience to listen to and participate in it too, or for the school to sponsor prayers IMO.

And there are examples of southern schools doing that very thing.

Edited by Ladybird

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Tikk

Why not? If Bible reading and prayers are not allowed in schools, then, perhaps in her mind, why not this?

 

Where exactly is Bible reading prohibited? Honestly I would like to know.

 

If I were a student. And if I were to bring a Bible or if I were to pray in a public school. What law, code, or other prohibition would not allow me to exercise my right to observe my own personal religious beliefs?

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Wag-a-Muffin (D)

Where exactly is Bible reading prohibited? Honestly I would like to know.

 

If I were a student. And if I were to bring a Bible or if I were to pray in a public school. What law, code, or other prohibition would not allow me to exercise my right to observe my own personal religious beliefs?

A Florida school teacher humiliated a 12-year-old boy in front of an entire class after she caught him reading the Bible during free reading time.

 

When 8-year-old Ryleigh Watts returned to class and informed her teacher who she wanted to honor, however, her mother said she was told to “write about something different.” Who was the proposed subject of young Ryleigh’s paper? Jesus Christ.

Edited by Wag-a-Muffin (D)

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Ladybird

Rankin County student sues over religious assemblies at school

Exclusive video obtained by 16 WAPT News

https://www.wapt.com/article/rankin-county-student-sues-over-religious-assemblies-at-school/2086072

 

Excerpt;

<snip>

 

"We were not told what the assembly was going to be about. I asked a teacher and she said, 'You don't need to know. It will be good for you.' I asked other teachers and they said, 'We're not supposed to tell you. Just go,'" Bedi said.

 

Bedi said she recorded cellphone video in April of one of four school assemblies at Northwest Rankin High School. In all four assemblies, students talked to classmates about overcoming obstacles through Jesus Christ.

 

"That was the straw that broke the camel's back for me. I was uncomfortable with the whole thing -- the fact that they were preaching an assembly through Christianity," Bedi said.

 

<snip>

 

Another allegation in Rankin County claims a Christian minister was given access to the lunchroom at Northshore Elementary School and approached a Muslim child. Classmates were told to pray for her because she was going to hell.

 

<snip>

 

 

I think they all are insufficiently trained on the first amendment rights of students.

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Tikk
catpat

Erm. Those are instances where authorities overstepped their, er, authority.

 

My question still is: "What law, code, or other prohibition would not allow me to exercise my right to observe my own personal religious beliefs?"

There are no laws that prohibit free exercise of religion in schools. However, there are myriad instances where schools, overstepping their authority, have prohibited the the free exercise thereof, because they misunderstand the law.

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Tikk

There are no laws that prohibit free exercise of religion in schools. However, there are myriad instances where schools, overstepping their authority, have prohibited the the free exercise thereof, because they misunderstand the law.

 

Agreed.

 

Honestly I there there needs to be a push back on this behavior of going from "prohibiting the free exercise of" to absolutely prohibiting.

 

As if "allowing" is the same as "condoning" or "requiring".

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MontyPython

I'm willing to wait a little. I've taught school. If this kid was a trouble maker, or if his tone was mocking when he said it--then it is different. I agree with you if her "history" with this child indicated he was telling the truth. But, I've known some kids that I wouldn't trust if they told me the sky were blue. Just sayin'.

 

(But I've also known some pretty ignorant Utahans. So you could be complete on target.)

 

I guess my attitude is that even if he was a smartass kid, how does an ash smudge harm anybody else? Did it spread germs? Did it make noise? Did it disrupt the class? If not, then the teacher was out of line.

 

But as a follow-up, reading further through the thread I caught your subsequent post about the candy & apology. So that, at least, was a happy ending to the whole affair (I hope.)

 

 

Why not? If Bible reading and prayers are not allowed in schools, then, perhaps in her mind, why not this?

 

Just so I can be sure where you're coming from: Would you suggest it's OK that prayers & Bible reading are not allowed in schools?

 

I assure you I'm not trying to be snarky or insulting. I'm genuinely curious.

 

B)

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catpat

Just so I can be sure where you're coming from: Would you suggest it's OK that prayers & Bible reading are not allowed in schools?

I do not have a problem with students reading their Bibles or having prayers in school. I do not feel that ashes are a problem, either.

 

I assure you I'm not trying to be snarky or insulting. I'm genuinely curious.

 

B)

Let's say that the teacher misunderstood the law regarding the right to observe personal religious beliefs within a school setting, e.g., Bible reading and prayer, then I can see where she may have thought that the ashes were inappropriate.

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MontyPython

I do not have a problem with students reading their Bibles or having prayers in school. I do not feel that ashes are a problem, either.

 

 

Let's say that the teacher misunderstood the law regarding the right to observe personal religious beliefs within a school setting, e.g., Bible reading and prayer, then I can see where she may have thought that the ashes were inappropriate.

 

Then I can't deny being somewhat confused. :blush: It seems we're in agreement, and yet your previous response to me came across as disagreement.

 

Oh well, I ran out of coffee yesterday and have therefore had to get through today without any. Maybe that explains it.

 

:coffeenpc:

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catpat

Then I can't deny being somewhat confused. :blush: It seems we're in agreement, and yet your previous response to me came across as disagreement.

 

Oh well, I ran out of coffee yesterday and have therefore had to get through today without any. Maybe that explains it.

 

:coffeenpc:

What you said is "she had no excuse to call it 'inappropriate' and make him wash it off." My comment back to you was "Why not? ... ." It was more a rhetorical remark. Perhaps if I had been a little more clearer by stating, "After all, if Bible reading ... ." Sorry, for the confusion.

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MontyPython

What you said is "she had no excuse to call it 'inappropriate' and make him wash it off." My comment back to you was "Why not? ... ." It was more a rhetorical remark. Perhaps if I had been a little more clearer by stating, "After all, if Bible reading ... ." Sorry, for the confusion.

 

So then we are at least basically in agreement, yes?

 

:yes:

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catpat

So then we are at least basically in agreement, yes?

 

:yes:

Yes.

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MontyPython

Yes.

 

:2up:

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Magic Rat

I think it was an honest mistake born of ignorance. I think the letter and candy can pretty much put this to bed. The teacher seems genuinely contrite. Everybody makes mistakes and a Catholic kid who got his ashes should be Christian enough to forgive her. It would be a shame that she faced discipline problems.

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MTP Reggie

It's one thing to pray and practice your religion. It's quite another to force a captive audience to listen to and participate in it too, or for the school to sponsor prayers IMO.

And there are examples of southern schools doing that very thing.

 

Or force them to convert? Kill them if they don't?

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usapatriot

Really? On Ash Wednesday public schools excuse kids in the morning if they want to go to church first. They do in NY & NJ anyway.

 

 

Episcopalians and other protestants observe Ash Wednesday too.

I went to a public grade school in Indiana and I was never excused to attend mass in the morning. Thus, my whole family went to Mass in the evening. I went to a Catholic high school, so Mass was held first thing in the morning. Thus, one of the perks from going to a Catholic school, I didn't have to go with my parents to Mass for Ash Wednesday in the evening!

 

In a related story, there was a girl in my class at my Catholic high school who was Jewish. I still remember one time when she was explaining why she wasn't in school one day...it was a Jewish holiday. From what I remember, it was several days throughout the year. Far as I know, the school never gave her any grief for missing those days and rightfully so.

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Ticked@TinselTown

I was an adult before I ever heard of the practice and I think I saw it on a TV show or in a movie. I have never seen anyone in real life participate in this. (And I have always lived in California and have known many Catholics and Lutherans.) So I'm willing to accept that this Utah teacher just thought the child had smudged a cross on his face.

 

The first time I saw it was 8th grade when I was in public school and a girl in my class showed up with the ashes on her forehead.

 

I told her she had something on her forehead and she said that it was Ash Wednesday and she and her family had gone to church before she had come to school for services.

 

Since this little boy told his teacher what the ashes were and why he had then on his forehead, the teacher had no right to interfere with his religious freedom, which was wearing those ashes on his forehead.

 

Period.

 

If a child comes to school with a Bindi on their forehead, does the teacher also demand that they remove it because it's 'inappropriate'?

 

Public schools took God out of the classroom by removing prayer. That's the way it is, fine.

 

This boy came to school after a religious practice that leaves ash on his forehead that happened BEFORE school.

 

The teacher had no right to demand that he remove it. None.

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grimreefer

It's amazing how of all the times I've been part of a "captive audience" that I've managed to survive being subjected to others' religious beliefs and practices, even way back when I was in school. No cuts, bruises, scratches, mental trauma or harm of any kind as I listened to someone say a prayer or talk of their beliefs. Well... maybe a bit of posterior discomfort from sitting for so long.

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Bookdoc

I remember a few nuns smacking us upside the head at school/church for using palm leaves as weapons. HAHAHA!

Nicer than the nuns we had-they used rulers although for severe cases the pastor would administer a smack with a wooden spoon on your palm.

BTW, I was raised Catholic-8 years Catholic Grade school, 2 years Catholic high school (last 2 years in the American School in Mexico City), and 4 years at a Catholic college. Lost the faith along the way. The ash was from the Palm Sunday palms from the previous year and were burned with a ceremony at our church for Ash Wednesday. My mother would tie a palm frond around the crucifixes in our house after we got them too.

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