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kestrel

Ahmaud Arbery Case: Propaganda, §1983, and Police Body Cam Video

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Diamond369
5 hours ago, Taggart Transcontinental said:

Are they? Why only one side gets the thug treatment? Instead of showing the guy as an angelic choir boy, show him for what he was.

Off topic:  Why are some people, esp. black people upset with Candace Owens when referring to her comments about Mr. Aubrey?  What did she say that was so bad?

I am also glad t hat one of you at least mentioned Zimmerman, a guy who I don't consider a hero but a troubled man who killed a guy in self defense.  I cannot say that this is the case here.  If Mr. Aubrey was white and the two shooters were black with all else being the same, what would have happened?  How differently, and not just here in the South but in the rest of the country?  While I still think that a death could have been prevented how much does race really play a role into what is going on here?  It is just a sad, tragic situation all the way around.

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Ladybird
5 minutes ago, kestrel said:

Doode could you tone the virtue signaling down just a notch? I know you're totally OUTRAGED! by this horror show but it won't make it any easier to come to some conclusions about what this is really all about because of your not quite so subtle self righteousness..Ok?..we get it racism is bad..and your not a racist...Shoot you probably have a black friend. Just calm down a bit Ok?

Kestrel...

Dutch's post did not reference race in any way.

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kestrel
20 minutes ago, Ladybird said:

The claim that Arbery's mother was "unfazed" by being lied to by the police while learning her son has been shot and killed is entirely subjective. Who said she was "unfazed"? When the police came to my apartment development to tell my neighbor her son was killed, she screamed bloody murder, cried, and then walked around like a zombie for the next two months. Is there some proper response to such news?  Perhaps she was processing what the police told her, along with facing that she just lost her child.

"lied to by the police while learning her son has been shot and killed is entirely subjective" How do you KNOW that the police lied to her?..isn't that "Subjective" Whats not subjective is the legal trouble this man has been in, off and on, for years..And what do you think will be on the juries mind while deliberating...The several records (vid and other) that propose to show a, shall we say, less than a model citizen on one hand and the cherubic high school kid of the past?..The correct answer is they shouldn't be affected by either!..The jury should be concerned with the facts of the case and the Constitutionality of the law...period!...Considerable difference outside the courtroom and down in the hood.

Kestrel...

P.S. BTW just wondering if you had a chance to decipher what Arbery was saying to the cop when he was so pissed off? It really bothers me that I can't understand what he is saying.

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kestrel
18 minutes ago, Ladybird said:

Dutch's post did not reference race in any way.

Don't have to reference race to virtue signal L/B...you know that! Oh wait! I get it you were doing it to be funny and to put one over on me!..Ok ok you got me!

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kestrel
4 hours ago, Ladybird said:

There is video footage of multiple people trespassing on the construction site.  Did the McMichaels call the cops and chase them?  The owner has stated nothing has been stolen from his property, though many people have trespassed.

I used to do this with my friends all the time.

Were any of them black? And you used to "Trespass with your friends all the time" did you ever get in trouble for going into strangers houses "All the time"? When was the last time in your life that you (and your friends) went, uninvited into someones house? Was it in Recent years? Why would you do that? Would you be ok with someone you didn't know getting into your car and just looking around..and if you saw them would you object or call the police?

Kestrel...

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Ladybird
8 minutes ago, kestrel said:

Were any of them black? And you used to "Trespass with your friends all the time" did you ever get in trouble for going into strangers houses "All the time"? When was the last time in your life that you (and your friends) went, uninvited into someones house? Was it in Recent years? Why would you do that? Would you be ok with someone you didn't know getting into your car and just looking around..and if you saw them would you object or call the police?

Kestrel...

An empty, open construction project is not "going into someone's house".

And yes, I did it on walks and with friends plenty of times.

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Ladybird
Posted (edited)
24 minutes ago, kestrel said:

"lied to by the police while learning her son has been shot and killed is entirely subjective" How do you KNOW that the police lied to her?..isn't that "Subjective" Whats not subjective is the legal trouble this man has been in, off and on, for years..And what do you think will be on the juries mind while deliberating...The several records (vid and other) that propose to show a, shall we say, less than a model citizen on one hand and the cherubic high school kid of the past?..The correct answer is they shouldn't be affected by either!..The jury should be concerned with the facts of the case and the Constitutionality of the law...period!...Considerable difference outside the courtroom and down in the hood.

Kestrel...

P.S. BTW just wondering if you had a chance to decipher what Arbery was saying to the cop when he was so pissed off? It really bothers me that I can't understand what he is saying.

He was shot and killed on the street.

He has a thick southern accent which is hard to understand, but it was basically "why are you bothering me?".  Does the manner of his speech bother you? How does it matter now?

And again, what did this police stop in the video produce that would make it pertinent to the shooting by the McMichaels... Stolen property? Drugs? A gun?  Was he arrested?

 

Edited by Ladybird

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Magic Rat
Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, Ladybird said:

 

 

Edited by Magic Rat

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Magic Rat
Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, Ladybird said:

An empty, open construction project is not "going into someone's house".

And yes, I did it on walks and with friends plenty of times.

Sure it is.  When  I have a vacant rental, it is still "someone's" house; mine.

Edited by Magic Rat

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Ladybird
Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, Magic Rat said:

Sure it is.  When  I have a vacant rental, it is still "someone's" house; mine.

Yes, my mistake.

It's still an empty shell, one in which the property owner did not have a problem with Arbery and others wandering through.

Edited by Ladybird

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Magic Rat
1 minute ago, Ladybird said:

Yes, my mistake.

It's still an empty shell, one in which the property owner did not have a problem with Arbery and others wandering through.

That's the thing about this though.  Some sources are saying the property owner asked neighbors to keep an eye on his property.  We don't have enough information to know what Aubrey was doing.  For example, it looks like the "jogging" thing was nonsense.

Right now, it looks to me like over-enthusiastic good old boys went overboard playing cops and robbers.  I don't believe it was murder and I haven't seen any evidence that McMichaels the Elder had any real record of racist activity while an LEO and those who intend to shoot someone usually don't call the police first.  There is too much speculation when in fact, WE DON'T KNOW.

And by "we", I mean you too.

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Magic Rat
Posted (edited)
9 minutes ago, Ladybird said:

 

What is with this thing repeating my posts?  Minor complaint.

Edited by Magic Rat

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Ladybird
6 minutes ago, Magic Rat said:

That's the thing about this though.  Some sources are saying the property owner asked neighbors to keep an eye on his property.  We don't have enough information to know what Aubrey was doing.  For example, it looks like the "jogging" thing was nonsense.

Right now, it looks to me like over-enthusiastic good old boys went overboard playing cops and robbers.  I don't believe it was murder and I haven't seen any evidence that McMichaels the Elder had any real record of racist activity while an LEO and those who intend to shoot someone usually don't call the police first.  There is too much speculation when in fact, WE DON'T KNOW.

And by "we", I mean you too.

I don't believe they 'intended' to kill him either. Doesn't matter. When a druggie holds up a liquor store for the cash, but the owner fights back and gets shot in the process, is it murder or manslaughter?  A drunk driver kills an entire family, but only meant to drive drunk. Is it murder or manslaughter?  When they chased him and fired their weapons, were they acting lawfully?

My personal opinion is if the prosecutors go for criminally negligent homicide, it will piss off a lot of people, but may be the only way for a conviction.  I may not agree with it either, but it might be the only way.

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Dean Adam Smithee
14 minutes ago, Magic Rat said:

What is with this thing repeating my posts?  Minor complaint.

Might be a "site" thing. I'm seeing issues too, though only in this particular thread.

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kestrel
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Ladybird said:

An empty, open construction project is not "going into someone's house".

And yes, I did it on walks and with friends plenty of times.

Is it your house?...are you saying that if you left your garage door open you're ok with " Avid teen joggers" and people "and their friends" scoping your place out if nobody's home?..Did you ever violate a no trespassing sign when you and your friends were "looking around" or does it being a "Construction Project" exempt the home as being fair game for any and all to mingle and scope the place out?..If you had gotten injured whilst doing your reconnaissance would you have expected the Homeowner to pay for your injuries?

Kestrel...

 

 

 

Edited by kestrel

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Magic Rat
Posted (edited)
19 minutes ago, Ladybird said:

I don't believe they 'intended' to kill him either. Doesn't matter. When a druggie holds up a liquor store for the cash, but the owner fights back and gets shot in the process, is it murder or manslaughter?  A drunk driver kills an entire family, but only meant to drive drunk. Is it murder or manslaughter?  When they chased him and fired their weapons, were they acting lawfully?

My personal opinion is if the prosecutors go for criminally negligent homicide, it will piss off a lot of people, but may be the only way for a conviction.  I may not agree with it either, but it might be the only way.

Like I said, it appears the prosectors have bowed to the mob so, when they are found not guilty of murder, like I predict, we get the rioting that the left wants.   They would have a chance with manslaughter.  Too bad for everyone but the media and the malcontents.

In the end, justice won't be served and the mob are the only ones who are going to be satisfied.

Edited by Magic Rat

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Ladybird
14 minutes ago, kestrel said:

Is it your house?...are you saying that if you left your garage door open you're ok with " Avid teen joggers" and people "and their friends" scoping your place out if nobody's home?..Did you ever violate a no trespassing sign when you and your friends were "looking around" or does it being a "Construction Project" exempt the home as being fair game for any and all to mingle and scope the place out?..If you had gotten injured whilst doing your reconnaissance would you have expected the Homeowner to pay for your injuries?

Kestrel...

P.S. Still hoping for a little help in the translation of what Arbery was saying to the cop if you can't comprehend his language or don't want to share it with me I completely understand. 

 

 

Not listening to a dead man anymore. Why don't you ask his mother?

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kestrel
53 minutes ago, Ladybird said:

He was shot and killed on the street.

He has a thick southern accent which is hard to understand, but it was basically "why are you bothering me?".  Does the manner of his speech bother you? How does it matter now?

And again, what did this police stop in the video produce that would make it pertinent to the shooting by the McMichaels... Stolen property? Drugs? A gun?  Was he arrested?

 

"He was shot and killed on the street." and this means that the cops lied to her how?..or is this some subjective interpretation of what the cops said. (its not that important if you don't know..just move on to the next)

"He has a thick southern accent which is hard to understand, but it was basically "why are you bothering me?". Ok thanks I have a hard time understanding relatives from Dixie way..but he seemed to say a lot more than "Why are you bothering me"..but that's ok L/B I appreciate your effort!..

"Does the manner of his speech bother you?" Yes! it does!..I hate it when I can't understand the words that someone is saying I had an uncle that lived in New Orleans and when he had a few he would be unintelligible to me

"what did this police stop in the video produce that would make it pertinent to the shooting by the McMichaels... Stolen property? Drugs? A gun?  Was he arrested?"

I have no idea if Mr Arbery had Stolen Property or Drugs or a Gun this time at least, he did however in the past get arrested for bringing a loaded pistol to high school..Why would a young city guy bring a loaded gun to school?..now if he had brought a Hunting Rifle to go hunting after school in my book that's well and good! (Me and my friends used to do that all the time when I was a kid) as to any "Arrest" I didn't see an arrest that day (however he did have some issues on some other days that had absolutely nothing to do with the incident with the father and son

Kestrel...

P.S. Thanks for the Translation L/B I'm sorry I didn't see that you had till I mentioned it to you again

 

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kestrel
1 hour ago, Ladybird said:

Yes, my mistake.

It's still an empty shell, one in which the property owner did not have a problem with Arbery and others wandering through.

Not to put to fine a point on this but I think having the security cameras in house and notifying the neighbors that there was unwanted activity going on and to keep an eye on the place does not seem like a "C'mon on in Y'all!"

Kestrel...

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kestrel
16 minutes ago, Ladybird said:

Not listening to a dead man anymore. Why don't you ask his mother?

Sigh...Because that would be really cruel to a grieving Mom..she will probably never get over this..But how bout this?..I'll say a prayer for her. I hope that's ok.

Kestrel...

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Dean Adam Smithee
1 hour ago, Ladybird said:

An empty, open construction project is not "going into someone's house".

And yes, I did it on walks and with friends plenty of times.

You and I grew up in a different era, LB. Sure, I've done it too as a kid/teen.  Even as a 20-something / adult when the site was little more than a concrete slab.

I dunno about elsewhere, but at least in FL and GA, demarcation is once the walls start going up and there's theftable materials laying around, it becomes...

Traffic Signs - Florida Designated Construction Site No ...

 

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zurg
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Magic Rat said:

That's the thing about this though.  Some sources are saying the property owner asked neighbors to keep an eye on his property.  We don't have enough information to know what Aubrey was doing.  For example, it looks like the "jogging" thing was nonsense.

Right now, it looks to me like over-enthusiastic good old boys went overboard playing cops and robbers.  I don't believe it was murder and I haven't seen any evidence that McMichaels the Elder had any real record of racist activity while an LEO and those who intend to shoot someone usually don't call the police first.  There is too much speculation when in fact, WE DON'T KNOW.

And by "we", I mean you too.

I agree. It's really frustrating, disheartening, infuriating that when stories like this come out the author/journalist's primary point always seems to be "how do I sensationalize this to the max so that I make it worth the most money to advertisers?"

Here's where my understanding is at this point. I'll try not to add my own bias. Each numbered statement (1.-3.) is a summary of what we seem to know that happened. Each item below the numbered statement expresses what I don't know.

  1. Black dude is in a (white) neighborhood
    • Not sure if jogging or running fast to get away from something
    • Not sure if a regular jogging route or an exception
    • If it was an an exception, not sure if there for a nefarious reason or out of interest
  2. White guys' friend spots black dude and tells them about him. One of the white guys sees him and thinks he recognizes him. He gets his son, each gets a gun, and they pursue black dude in their pickup truck
    • Not sure exactly why the white guy thinks he recognizes the black dude
    • Not sure if he is almost certain this black dude is the one who's been making burglary attempts in the area
    • Not sure if burglaries have happened in the area
    • Not sure if they pursue this particular black dude because he's a prime suspect of something in their minds, or because he's black
  3. White guys catch up with black dude and block his running/jogging path. White guys try to make black dude stop. Seems they want to talk to him. Black dude makes an evasive maneuver. One of the white guys anticipates and ends up in front of him. Some kind of a fight ensues. 3 shots are fired, one first, then two a little later. Black dude dies.
    • Not sure if the black dude was willing to talk
    • Not sure if the white guys were willing to just talk
    • Not sure if black dude was worried about being arrested
    • Not sure if black dude was worried about being beaten or killed if he stopped to talk
    • Not sure, once the white guy and the black dude were in close proximity face to face, who made the first move to attack the other person
    • Not sure who was more the aggressor at that instant (only that instant)
    • Not sure if the white guy shot the black dude at the first opportunity, or if the black dude went for the gun
    • Not sure if the two white guys told their friend to video it
    • Not sure why the video was taken - for proof about legality, or for sick proof about tough they are

I know what it looks like right now, like you said MR, over-zealous white guys causing the situation to get really bad too fast, and perhaps guilty of manslaughter (but not murder). But I really can't claim to be able to judge this case based on what we do know for sure.

(Aside: really stupid, from a legal viewpoint, of the white guys to show the video to the lawyer. Without it, there's no outrage and no case.)

Edited by zurg
  • Agree (+1) 1

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kestrel
2 hours ago, Diamond369 said:

Off topic:  Why are some people, esp. black people upset with Candace Owens when referring to her comments about Mr. Aubrey?  What did she say that was so bad?

I am also glad t hat one of you at least mentioned Zimmerman, a guy who I don't consider a hero but a troubled man who killed a guy in self defense.  I cannot say that this is the case here.  If Mr. Aubrey was white and the two shooters were black with all else being the same, what would have happened?  How differently, and not just here in the South but in the rest of the country?  While I still think that a death could have been prevented how much does race really play a role into what is going on here?  It is just a sad, tragic situation all the way around.

It is indeed Diamond a complete tragedy For the Arbery's and the McMichales..and the point that I've wanted to explore (now that all the obligatory RACIST stuff is hopefully behind us) is why there are incidents that are reported in the media that are IMO biased (hence the "mug shots" of the McMichales and the high school pictures of Mr Arbery) and then the Ben Crump's, Jackson, Sharpton's and the rest of Race Inc. Try to "get Justice" (Not too mention having perhaps a financial incentive) by trying the case in the media (like George Zimmerman)..I Can't say I completely understand the media's motive for this (Smug virtue signaling notwithstanding)..But the result is more and more division between the races Now I can, to some extent, understand the Democrat Party wanting to incite racism because the threat of incipient slavery is one of the tools they use to keep their people under their control (remember this one of Gropey Joe    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SU4Ewu0lw_Q) Poverty is another tool the democrats use also Dependency on Govt..and you want to see Systemic Racism..just look at the low expectations the Left has for blacks..Affirmative Action in college (low expectations) looks like they believe that Black folk are too mentally deficient to compete with Whites and Asians. The Democrats thru the Welfare State have destroyed the Black family (where are the Dads?) ..Seems to me that all they expect the Black Folks to do is simply come out from the shacks (ghettos) and the fields (The Hood) and cast a ballot and then get their asses back to the plantation till they are wanted again. Aided and abetted by the Jackson/Sharpton's types from Race Inc. (who by the way live nowhere near "The Community" but rather behind the armed guards and the high walls of the gated communities that afford them the comfort that Rev Jackson expressed in this way"  “There is nothing more painful to me at this stage in my life than to walk down the street and hear footsteps... then turn around and see somebody white and feel relieved.”  Painful Rev Jackson?..You've no idea.

Kestrel...

 

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kestrel
26 minutes ago, zurg said:

I agree. It's really frustrating, disheartening, infuriating that when stories like this come out the author/journalist's primary point always seems to be "how do I sensationalize this to the max so that I make it worth the most money to advertisers?"

Here's where my understanding is at this point. I'll try not to add my own bias. Each numbered statement (1.-3.) is a summary of what we seem to know that happened. Each item below the numbered statement expresses what I don't know.

  1. Black dude is in a (white) neighborhood
    • Not sure if jogging or running fast to get away from something
    • Not sure if a regular jogging route or an exception
    • If it was an an exception, not sure if there for a nefarious reason or out of interest
  2. White guys' friend spots black dude and tells them about him. One of the white guys sees him and thinks he recognizes him. He gets his son, each gets a gun, and they pursue black dude in their pickup truck
    • Not sure exactly why the white guy thinks he recognizes the black dude
    • Not sure if he is almost certain this black dude is the one who's been making burglary attempts in the area
    • Not sure if burglaries have happened in the area
    • Not sure if they pursue this particular black dude because he's a prime suspect of something in their minds, or because he's black
  3. White guys catch up with black dude and block his running/jogging path. White guys try to make black dude stop. Seems they want to talk to him. Black dude makes an evasive maneuver. One of the white guys anticipates and ends up in front of him. Some kind of a fight ensues. 3 shots are fired, one first, then two a little later. Black dude dies.
    • Not sure if the black dude was willing to talk
    • Not sure if the white guys were willing to just talk
    • Not sure if black dude was worried about being arrested
    • Not sure if black dude was worried about being beaten or killed if he stopped to talk
    • Not sure, once the white guy and the black dude were in close proximity face to face, who made the first move to attack the other person
    • Not sure who was more the aggressor at that instant (only that instant)
    • Not sure if the white guy shot the black dude at the first opportunity, or if the black dude went for the gun
    • Not sure if the two white guys told their friend to video it
    • Not sure why the video was taken - for proof about legality, or for sick proof about tough they are

I know what it looks like right now, like you said MR, over-zealous white guys causing the situation to get really bad too fast, and perhaps guilty of manslaughter (but not murder). But I really can't claim to be able to judge this case based on what we do know for sure.

(Aside: really stupid, from a legal viewpoint, of the white guys to show the video to the lawyer. Without it, there's no outrage and no case.)

I'm fairly certain that I read that the Younger McMichale had a confrontation with Mr Arbery several days prior and claimed that Arbery was acting like he had "something" under his coat No proof of that but there you are. Just another little tidbit in this fustercluck..The only question in my mind is WHY did the kid go back there to that Neighborhood to jog if it was full of crackers with guns and no liking for the home-boyz?..Why did he continue toward the truck that the Two white guys were in..why not simply turn and go another way?...

Kestrel...

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Dean Adam Smithee
18 minutes ago, zurg said:
  1. White guys' friend spots black dude and tells them about him. One of the white guys sees him and thinks he recognizes him. He gets his son, each gets a gun, and they pursue black dude in their pickup truck
    • Not sure exactly why the white guy thinks he recognizes the black dude
    • Not sure if he is almost certain this black dude is the one who's been making burglary attempts in the area

 

It's PRECISELY these two points that tip it for me.

  • White guys recognizes the black guy as (possibly) the same one they'd pursued a couple weeks earlier for the same offense. 
  • White guys have seen the security video passed around.   McMichaels-the-former-LEO had previously dealt with Trayvon II for carrying a gun to school , knew he was (potentially) armed, so doesn't surprise me they went out "loaded for Bear".

Bear in mind, we're talking small-town Georgia. Brunswick GA = pop. 16,000-ish. Doesn't take much for a small-town  LEO (or ex-LEO) to know who the (few) local bad actors are and recognize them.

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