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oki

Gun control advocates really don't have a clue.

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oki

        Let's take a look at all the favorite gun control arguments shall we?   And yes, some things do apply multiple times.

 

       Intended use, founding fathers never thought we would have the current firearms yadda' yadda'

Wanna' go down that road to stupid town?  Gun powder...  what was it's 'intended use'?  Wasn't fireworks, wasn't explosives...  it was ancient Chinese medicine.  Did it work?  Nope, it did not did it?  But, sometime in the years following someone figured out how to use it in a manner the ancient Chinese never intended or 'for saw' didn't they?

But hey, there are lots of things where the inventors never intended or for saw know didn't they?  Think Orville and Wilbur Wright thought there invention would be used to bomb the sh$t out of cities, much less be used as a weapon to kill 3,000 plus innocent Americans in one day?  JUST LIKE GUN POWDER it isn't what it was intended for that decides how deadly something is, it's the person using, or improving it that makes it deadly.

 

   The founding fathers never thought there would be Ar-15's, AK-47's and 'assault rifles'.... they where in a time of single shot muskets.

By far this is one of the most asinine and short sighted assumption based pieces of ignorance there is.  We are talking about people who had the wisdom, for sight, and vision into the future to create the most powerful, prosperous and envied nation the world has ever seen.  But yet, somehow, despite at least one of them being a renowned scientist and inventor in his own right(Franklin) they didn't think that one day guns would be able to shoot multiple times without the need for reload?  That firearms LIKE EVERYTHING ELSE wouldn't improve over time to become something largely un recognizable to them at their time?   That's pretty damn short sighted don't ya think?  PLUS, know here is the real hum dinger'.  Look up the Puckle Gun, this was already in use at the time of this nations founding.  Not in large numbers, but sure as hell the guys who started this nation where aware of it.  What was it?  IT WAS A MULTI SHOT GUN.  No, not something you would be carrying(it was a small ship mounted cannon meant to deal with pirates in small fast moving craft), but it proved multi shot fire arms where possible.  Plus, know where did they ever even so much as mention that when guns progressed we the people must be limited to Muskets. 

Gun ownership was only meant to the military/militia.  Really?  First off, look up who the militia was.  I forget whom exactly, but he flat out said, the Militia was the people(except for politicians), that it was every able bodied male between 15 and 60(probably of on the exact numbers though).  NEVER ONCE, NOT A ONCE did they say firearm ownership was to be limited to Military, Police, or the Gov.  Nor was hunting even mentioned one time, self defense was.  IN THE CONTEXT AGAINST TYRANNY AND SELF DEFENSE. 

 

Strict gun laws save lives, and stop crime.  Wow, just wow.  First of, about 2/3 of the 'gun violence' deaths (around 40,000) are suicides.  That means about 30,000 are from people who take their own lives.  But, if guns weren't so easy to get then there would be less suicides you say?  Well explain Japan then.  Come on, why does a country where owning a gun is extremely difficult(and no it is not illegal to own a gun in Japan just very difficult and uncommon) have MORE SUICIDES THAN THE U.S. despite having a population that is just over half ours?  Please explain.  Coarse this is a question that always gets yammering, stammering, and never a straight answer.  The reason is of coarse because people simply find other ways.  In my years of living there, visiting, and so on never once have I heard the term rope violence or calls to regulate it to help stem the tide of Suicides.  Nor, has there been calls to make it harder to walk out on the roof of tall buildings, limit sales of charcoal, hose, or limit access to Suana's.  What am I getting at?  The most common ways to commit suicide in Japan are hanging, jumping from tall buildings, asphyxiation with charcoal(IE lighting a grill in your apartment), running a hose from your cars exhaust to the inside(then blocking the opening of the window), and getting extremely drunk then sitting in a Sauna.  Here is the other rub, even the average Japanese understands that guns don't kill people do, and that's where you must start.  Most are in disbelief and see the sheer stupidity of passing law after law but not punishing the criminal first and foremost, and, that not dealing with repeat offenders is stupidity of the highest level.

Then there is the old if strict gun laws work then why do cities like Chicago have insaine gun crime?  Ask the idiots in Chicago and they like to blame Wisconsin, Indiana and Michigan for their 'lax gun laws' and the flow of guns into their little utopia.  Here is the problem with that stupidity. 

1.  If they know the state the firearm came from it means that it can be tracked back to the dealer first sold from.  You would think that when a large chunk of firearms connected to crimes keep tracing back to a handful of dealers that the next logical step would be for the A.T.F. to be talking with those dealers.  Quite possible the dealer is making sales in good faith and has no idea the person or people are doing straw purchases.  %99 of dealers will gladly co operate. 

 

2.  If it was the lax gun laws to blame as they claim then why don't those states seem to have those same issues, EXCEPT IN KEY VERY LEFTWING CITIES?

Shouldn't Wisconsin as a whole be a freaken' war zone like Chicago?  You see, it works both ways.  How does a city which makes up less than ten percent of the states population account for well over half it's murders?  I am speaking of Milwaukee.  about 585,000(Wisconsin is about 5.95 million)  and about 130 murders annually(or more) Wisconsin has about 240-250 murders state wide each year.  The next biggest cities Madison(about 240,000 and also a super left wing city) has about 8, and Green Bay(very very pro gun and high gun ownership) rate is about 114,000 and averages 0-3 each year.  2019 saw the first murder in three years.  The rest of the murders are through out the state.  Again, can someone please explain why Milwaukee is so damn violent but yet the rest of the state with the SAME LAWS is far more peace full?  By the way, there is more 'access to guns' in Green Bay as there are numerous shops large and small throughout the city.  Hell, no matter where you are in Green Bay your never more than 1.5 miles from any business that sells firearms.  Restrictions, Federal Law on everything.  Meaning if you have the $ $ $ and the patience you can legally obtain a full auto.  We have at least one dealer that can handle Class III items.  Wisconsin is not an anomaly.   There are countless examples across the country.

 

Oh yes, the old why do you need an AR-15, why do you need 30 round magazines, there is no use, they are weapons of war, only good for killing people, made to kill people yadda' yadda'.

First of, when the AR-15 was first developed by Armalite the military DID NOT WANT IT.  Got that?  They had to modify, and make a new version the M-16(which had full auto capability). 

The AR-15 shares the same appearance, but none of the key parts which separate the two cousins key difference.  Full auto, burst and semi vs semi auto fire only.

Made to kill people, made for the military?  Got a news flash for you, EVERY SINGLE TYPE OF FIREARM FALLS UNDER THIS CATEGORY.  Hell, a few feet from me are two bolt action 'hunting rifles' that fit this definition.  Both are WWII, one is Japanese and one is Russian/Soviet.  Mechanically(and like every other civilian firearm) they are no different than any other civilian firearm.Do you even realize that there are a number of times when civilian developed firearms where actually adopted by the military for use?  That's right, it goes the other way to.  I can give examples, but that would be pointless.  So who needs thirty rounds.  Ever went Hog Hunting Down south?  How about dealing with Coyotes?  Ground Hogs?  By the way, would you like to learn why the Military adopted 'large capacity' magazines?  Simple, in WWII and Korea the hit rate was low.  Idea was more bullets would make the Soldier more effective.  Problem is to do this they had to reduce the power of the gun A LOT.  Meaning your dreaded AR-15 is far less powerful then rifles of WWII or even your average Deer rifle.  What a standard AR-15 shoots is in the range of half the power of most Deer rifles.  THAT'S WHY MANY STATES DO NOT ALLOW THE DREADED .223 to be used!.  Higher rate of fire is the trade of for rounds that don't pack anywhere near the punch.  By the way, THERE ARE NUMEROUS RIFLES OUT THERE WHICH ARE BOTH SEMI AUTO, MAGAZINE FED AND... SHOOT THE BIGGER BULLETS WHICH CAN BE USED FOR DEER HUNTING.  But since they are not AR-15's no one seems to notice.  Don't believe me about the difference in power?  Go on you tube.  Talk to someone who knows ballistics. 

But AR-15's are the weapon of choice for mass shootings, and the carnage.  First of, mass shootings didn't seem to be a problem in the 1960's(the AR-15 has been available since 60 or 61 and other rifles which fit the flimsy definition of assault rifle where available DECADES before that even).  They weren't an issue in the 70's, or 80's either, where they?  Ever stopped to think that maybe just maybe closing the loony bins and doping the crap out of people WHICH DID PRECEDE THE MASS SHOOTING EPIDEMIC has a lot to do with it?  Taking away the means does not take away the ends.  Bet you didn't hear much about an Arson attack on an Anime studio in Kyoto Japan that left 22 dead did you?  Or another Arson attack in Daegu South Korea that killed nearly 200?  Both where done with a can of Gasoline.  Did either country put bans or back ground checks of Gasoline can purchases?  They didn't, because they understand you can't put a ban on crazy, YOU HAVE TO LOCK THEM UP WHERE THEY CAN'T HURT ANYONE.  They also understand you lock criminals up.  Plus, if you want to play the old you get or can have what you need game.  Why stop at guns or magazines?  Cars kill more than guns, and, do we not have every single rule in place on them that is wanted for gun ownership?  Licensing requirements that include such things as taking a test, if you are dangerous your license can be pulled, insurance requirements, some states requiring safety inspections, even Police Officers dedicated to enforcing the rules.  Yet more people die on our roadways.  O, I know cars weren't meant to kill people.  Like I said in the beginning, neither was gun powder.  But, someone figured out a way.  And, don't the majority of murders involved the use of a motor vehicle at one point, or multiple points?  Just as easy I can say if a criminal can't drive to the scene to commit the crime, then drive away murder would be much harder.  I mean, pretty hard to do a drive by in Chicago if you have to car to drive by in.  Lot less inclined to go commit a murder in the middle of January if you have to walk 2 miles to get there then try to run two miles from the scene.  Plus, do you really need a big house?  I mean think of the environment, do you really need a huge fridge either, do you really need to keep your home at 68 winter either?

Do you really need all that food, lot's of American's are starving, shouldn't it go to them?  Hell, do you really need to keep all the money you earn?  Lot's of poor people who need it more.

Look, any society or Government that can decide what you can have based on need is not a free society.  It's an oppressive nightmare.  Some rules, regulations yes, absolutely.  But not to the point that the law abiding are deprived or rights.  Much less criminals are not affected nor punished. 

Sorry for the long rambling, had a lot to say.  Also, if you want links to what I have stated I will gladly provide them. 

 

 

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Hieronymous

Gun control advocates have a clue.  They want control.  Over everyone.

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oki
4 minutes ago, Hieronymous said:

Gun control advocates have a clue.  They want control.  Over everyone.

 

  To be honest I think you have three, maybe four types.

First type is the barking moon bats who don't know squat, but believe all the lies and hype.  Good intentions, but clue less of all the facts.

Second type is those who do know better and it is all about control.  

Third is the type who claim to support gun rights, but only under certain conditions.  These are the types who will say they support guns for hunting, but not AR-15's.  Try to come of as reasonable but in the end are really no different. 

Fourth is the type who may actually own a firearm or two but still wants certain types banned, because in their mind if they can't see use or need then no one has use or need, and that's all that matters to them. 

 

    Every single Gun control argument is actually pretty simple to blow away.  From both a historical(that's the whole intent, never for saw) as well as a logical(that's largely numbers why one area of the country has more issues than the other despite having the same laws and rules).  Sad in a way, I have had better conversations with Japanese people about Gun laws, and gun control than I have had with many Americans.  I think it's due in large part to the fact that those Japanese people see firearms for what they are, not scary, neither good or bad, but inanimate objects in which the person holding it determines everything.  Yes, these same Japanese don't necessarily understand specifics and many have been duped in regards to details per sei, but they are least willing to listen, to learn, and make a decision based on info and not hysteria or mis info.

 

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greggor

The only thing that really matters has nothing at all to do with which type of idiot wants gun control..  they will never get it without a war.  And there's an awful lot of us who would never give them up.

That's called "war"..  and that we will have.

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Ma Deuce

You forgot to mention the Girandoni air rifle carried by Lewis and Clark on their expedition. It was .46 caliber, and could fire twenty rounds in rapid succession through a side mounted, spring fed hopper. It was the assault rifle of its day and is a highly sought after air rifle, for airgun enthusiasts such as myself.

As for high capacity magazines...why not? When you see these large crowds of BLM and Antifa going on a rampage, it's good to know a few high capacity mags on you person, levels the playing field. 

To support your arguments, if a well armed society is detrimental in the long run, then why isn't there blood running down the streets in Kennesaw, Georgia? Where residents of that town are required to have firearms in their home?

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Severian

Gotta love the Left. They shriek see, socialism works, holding up Scandinavian countries as examples. When you point out that these are much more mono-cultures than the US, with a majority of the people having similar values regarding work, etc. that don't uniformly apply here, they shriek that culture doesn't matter, it'll work beautifully here!

When you point out Switzerland as an example favoring lots of guns, how military assault rifles, real ones, are in many homes, they then shriek well the Swiss can get away with that due to their culture.

I'd say the worse the mass culture is, as the US is trending, the MORE you need guns and large magazines.

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oki
32 minutes ago, Ma Deuce said:

You forgot to mention the Girandoni air rifle carried by Lewis and Clark on their expedition. It was .46 caliber, and could fire twenty rounds in rapid succession through a side mounted, spring fed hopper. It was the assault rifle of its day and is a highly sought after air rifle, for airgun enthusiasts such as myself.

As for high capacity magazines...why not? When you see these large crowds of BLM and Antifa going on a rampage, it's good to know a few high capacity mags on you person, levels the playing field. 

To support your arguments, if a well armed society is detrimental in the long run, then why isn't there blood running down the streets in Kennesaw, Georgia? Where residents of that town are required to have firearms in their home?

Exactly, and while not a firearm by most legal definitions your right about Girandoni.  In the right hands it was still a wicked piece of hardware.  Per high capacity magazines, like everything else it's a trade off.  More bullets that are less powerful, or less bullets that are more powerful.  More bullets that are harder to handle and require a stronger heavier firearm that are less accurate, or less bullets that are easier to aim, handle and control etc etc etc.  And yeah, your right about Kennesaw. 

Countless examples across this country where you have two extremes that have the exact same laws yet total opposites.  If laws where effective or truly a factor as the anti gun left says, then the violence should be equal.  Willing to be the same exact stats will be for Minneapolis vs Minnesota as is Milwaukee vs Wisconsin.  One mistake we on the pro gun side have made is always pointing to Chicago, N.Y.C., Baltimore (and more).   You can't saw lax guns laws mean more crime and violence when 1.  violence includes suicide, and 2. one or two cities are disproportional to the rest of the state when the same laws are in effect.  What is the old saying?  To prove something a positive fact, you must first be able to prove it negative?  Well, that is certainly the case here.  Again, if lax laws are a factor in Chicago, Milwaukee, Minneapolis (or anywhere else for that matter), then the blood shed should be uniform in each state outside of those cities. 

 

 

 

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