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Trump Approves Funding For Revolutionary Nuclear Power Plant

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oki
3 minutes ago, Rock N' Roll Right Winger said:

   Gotcha'.  What blows my mind is the absolute lack of emergency planning that went into censoredushima.  Especially considering it's location and the KNOWN Tsunami and earthquake risks.  I understand that it may not have been as simple as putting taller air intakes and exhausts on the generators.  BUT at minimum why there was no DC/Battery backup to carry backup pumps long enough to complete an emergency shut down is beyond me.  Or, why the generators were not on top of the building or at least a couple stories up on a part of the building designed for them is also a surprise. 

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oki
3 hours ago, Bad_Apple said:

No but I have worked at South Texas in Bay City TX  many times. My company does supply the fuel to Comanche Peak.

I was just at Point Beach in Green Bay Sunday and now I am at Turkey Point in Miami. had to pack 2 types of clothes for this trip since I did not go home in between 😎

After this Job I go to Taiwan and with the sweet and sour sniffles I must do a 2 week quarantine after I arrive. So looks like a fun times ahead 

Youz' was not in Green Bay.  But, far easier than saying near Kewuanee or Manitowoc.  Far as weather?  This ain't cold yet, not even close.

Highly recommend a visit in between early December and mid February.  It's quite the experience.

 

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Bad_Apple

My hotel was right by Lambeau field lol the Home2 suites only place close enough to site but you are correct had a 40 minute drive to plant.

 

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linewinder
59 minutes ago, oki said:

      There is a whole lot more to the story.

Very sad really, but there is much much  more to the story.

When the earthquake hit the plant went into emergency shut down, and this required back up power to continue cooling the reactors, back up power failed, because the Generators that powered the system was flooded with the Tsunami.    BUT, what hasn't been mentioned is the fact that There had been a Tsunami in the 1700's which was even higher.  In fact markers and warnings had been placed to tell people it could happen again.  Had the Generators been placed at a higher point such as on top of buildings, and fuel tanks given taller vents, or been given taller intakes and exhausts that would have at least bought some time.  Or, a battery back up for the pumps to draw upon with a minimum amount of time enough to allow for an emergency shut down this would not have happened.  The Earthquake and resulting Tsunami set of a chain of events yes, but sadly any emergency shut down where the Generators went of line would have also caused this as well.  As the Japanese are well known for stuff holding up, things being well designed and well made my guess is someone who knew nothing of history or engineering got involved in the design process to save money.  When it comes to building and industrial design in Japan there is always a high priority put on saving as much land as possible and maximizing usable floor space.  I would not be surprised if the original design called for the generators being on the roof, fuel tanks having had taller vents and even battery back ups for the pumps. 

 

South Texas Project (STP) here in Matagorda County Texas (Bay City ) Had received permits to add 2 new reactors when the Fukushima accident happened. The permits were pulled to allow studies to insure likely scenarios were not possible here. The permits have since been reinstated, but construction is on hold as costs for other fuels for power generation have come down. I've not heard any updates on possible restarting the new construction. From what I heard.

Since Bad_Apple has done work here, do you have further information on this?

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Bad_Apple
1 minute ago, linewinder said:

South Texas Project (STP) here in Matagorda County Texas (Bay City ) Had received permits to add 2 new reactors when the Fukushima accident happened. The permits were pulled to allow studies to insure likely scenarios were not possible here. The permits have since been reinstated, but construction is on hold as costs for other fuels for power generation have come down. I've not heard any updates on possible restarting the new construction. From what I heard.

Since Bad_Apple has done work here, do you have further information on this?

No I have not heard anything in a while. The new plants were going to initially BWR the current 2 plant are PWR.

 

 

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linewinder
2 minutes ago, Bad_Apple said:

No I have not heard anything in a while. The new plants were going to initially BWR the current 2 plant are PWR.

 

 

Thank You.

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oki
9 minutes ago, Bad_Apple said:

My hotel was right by Lambeau field lol the Home2 suites only place close enough to site but you are correct had a 40 minute drive to plant.

 

   That' sounds about right.  You better have at least popped into Hinterland and 'sampled' some of their product.  You have not been to Green Bay if you have not partaken in some of the local micro brews.  Anything less... well that is a form of sacrilege.  Don't remember for sure but the Buffalo Wild Wings near that Hotel might sell Hinterland product. 

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oki
7 minutes ago, linewinder said:

South Texas Project (STP) here in Matagorda County Texas (Bay City ) Had received permits to add 2 new reactors when the Fukushima accident happened. The permits were pulled to allow studies to insure likely scenarios were not possible here. The permits have since been reinstated, but construction is on hold as costs for other fuels for power generation have come down. I've not heard any updates on possible restarting the new construction. From what I heard.

Since Bad_Apple has done work here, do you have further information on this?

 

     Hurricanes and swells from that would probably be a bigger concern.  True story....

Many many moons ago when I was stationed in Okinawa(time in point would have been 99 or 2000) the environmental 'geniuses' back in the U.S. thought the below ground diesel tank for our Generators must be replaced ASAP due to age and leakage potential.  Oh my God it's an environmental disaster waiting to happen.  Sooo......   the 'geniuses' first put in three 10K gallon above ground super duper sealed tanks that where to be gravity fed into a single line.  Each with a single straw feeding into a shared line.  Strike one was prior to the new system being filled and going live.  I was out doing my checks in the power building(Unit Hazmat NCO) carrying a clip board or note pad checking some stuff when I damn near tripped over something that SHOULD NOT HAVE BEEN THERE.  Yeah I know, my fault...   I look down and there is the fuel line.  Would not have been such a big deal expect one very big problem.

RIGHT BY THE FREAKEN' SUBSTATION FOR THE TINY BASE I WAS ON!!!!!   No more than 10 feet from the power lines.  Our CO, power Chief and every one else rightly made a pretty good stink.  In part because our base had been hit by lighting a few times over the years so the fear was those lines could get an indirect strike, or arc from the substation.  If that happened ka f'ng boom.  And, a huge chunk of D.O.D. traffic for the Pacific goes dark.

Strike two was when they did bury the lines but forgot something very critical about multi tank gravity fed systems.  That if one tank is even the slightest bit higher than any of the others it will cause a that one to drain first, then the one at the lowest elevation to over fill.  If i remember right the geniuses thought they could over come this by putting by putting different length tubes/straws on the tanks. 

Well, guess what happened the first time they Generators ran for an extended period of time(Typhoon)?  That's right, a whole lotta' Diesel over flowed tank 1.  Surprised to this day it wasn't an international incident.  Best estimation was about 1,000 gallons or more.  Much of it running of into a nearby river.  The Gen crew did what they could, but there was nothing they could do.  No one had the for sight to put to say, gee maybe we should put shut off valves on tanks 1 and 2, or run the system for an extended period of time and then make sure all three tanks are being drained at the same rate. 

To explain the system simply....  Imagine if you have three buckets.  Each have a single line that draw water.  And 3 connects to 2 connects to 1 connects to one line where the water is meant to drain or be pumped from.  What happens of the buckets aren't exactly level, or if the straws are not correct length?  Yup, the bucket at the lowest level or shortest straw in relation to the others gets over flowed. 

 

 

 

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kestrel
1 hour ago, oki said:

Youz' was not in Green Bay.  But, far easier than saying near Kewuanee or Manitowoc.  Far as weather?  This ain't cold yet, not even close.

Highly recommend a visit in between early December and mid February.  It's quite the experience.

 

Yes indeed..I'm about 100 miles west and north of you..it gets a lot colder in Wi than Mi but we get a lot more snow..(lake Effect)..But if it's cold enough to freeze Lk Mi then we lose the snow and get the cold..I prefer the cold cuz at least the Sun comes out more Specially in Jan and Feb..by the end of Feb and into mid march it gets kinda depressing in years the lake doesn't freeze

Kestrel...

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Joe the Pagan
2 hours ago, Bad_Apple said:

After Fukushima all US plants made major changes to Diesel generators and the placement of water hoses that could spray cooling water if they were knocked out. One good thing is all US plants share OE and work together for improvements if 1 has an issue all get informed about it.

At work we have had lots of study on Chernobyl and Fukushima to discuss what happened and why.

 

Years ago I heard a nuclear scientist say during a documentary on Chernobyl.

Comparing any reactor in the United States to Chernobyl is like comparing a Mercedes-Benz with a Yugo.

 

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oki
13 minutes ago, kestrel said:

Yes indeed..I'm about 100 miles west and north of you..it gets a lot colder in Wi than Mi but we get a lot more snow..(lake Effect)..But if it's cold enough to freeze Lk Mi then we lose the snow and get the cold..I prefer the cold cuz at least the Sun comes out more Specially in Jan and Feb..by the end of Feb and into mid march it gets kinda depressing in years the lake doesn't freeze

Kestrel...

   Easier for me to handle the snow than the cold.  Getting old I guess.

 

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oki
9 minutes ago, Joe the Pagan said:

Years ago I heard a nuclear scientist say during a documentary on Chernobyl.

Comparing any reactor in the United States to Chernobyl is like comparing a Mercedes-Benz with a Yugo.

 

    Wow, that's insane.

 

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kestrel
Just now, oki said:

   Easier for me to handle the snow than the cold.  Getting old I guess.

 

Time does that:):):)

K...

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Bad_Apple
42 minutes ago, Joe the Pagan said:

Years ago I heard a nuclear scientist say during a documentary on Chernobyl.

Comparing any reactor in the United States to Chernobyl is like comparing a Mercedes-Benz with a Yugo.

 

Very true statement they use graphite rods and have no containment vessel. They also refuel some without shutting them down 1st.

I have been to 1 site in Ukraine are sister company in Sweden makes the fuel for them now Russian designed fuel assemblies have 6 sides where US fuel assembly is 4 sided. Once was enough very nice people but very different safety culture there.

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zurg
2 hours ago, Joe the Pagan said:

Years ago I heard a nuclear scientist say during a documentary on Chernobyl.

Comparing any reactor in the United States to Chernobyl is like comparing a Mercedes-Benz with a Yugo.

 

How do you know you’re having a dish of Chicken Kiev? It glows in the dark. 

Edited by zurg
(Autocorrect made dish into fish and spoiled it)

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Dean Adam Smithee
10 hours ago, Moderator T said:

Back in August, we looked at an exciting new energy project that’s unfolding in Idaho but which has run into funding issues along with some political skulduggery. The Utah Associated Municipal Power Systems is working with a company named NuScale to build the first Small Modular Reactor (SMR) in the nation.

This is an idea that has come... and gone... and come back around again.

There was a time - Wa-a-ay back before the '79 Three Mile Island incident - when "micro" reactors were going to be the "Next Big Thing".  We had one at U of Maryland in the early '80s, I think it was something like 1/10,000 the size of a regular powerplant-sized reactor. I believe Indiana University still has one, and this current NuScale is a spin-off of a University of Oregon project in the early 2000's.

And it seems like maybe once a decade or so, some developer buys a long-abandoned building and finds the remains of a long-forgotten reactor in the pasement. I've posted a couple such stories over the years. Once these things have been officially decommissioned, does anybody keep track any more? There's probably STILL some long-forgotten ones out there.

EtA: OSTI.gov (1968): Power Reactors in Small Packages.

EtA2: IEEE.org (2015): The Forgotten History of Small Nuclear Reactors

 

 

Edited by Dean Adam Smithee
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Severian
2 hours ago, Joe the Pagan said:

Years ago I heard a nuclear scientist say during a documentary on Chernobyl.

Comparing any reactor in the United States to Chernobyl is like comparing a Mercedes-Benz with a Yugo.

 

With a burning rag hanging out of the gas tank filler hole.

1 hour ago, zurg said:

How do you know you’re having a fish of Chicken Kiev? It glows in the dark. 

The old joke used to be what do you call a 2 lb turkey and a 20 lb cranberry? Thanksgiving at Three Mile Island.

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oki
5 hours ago, Bad_Apple said:

After Fukushima all US plants made major changes to Diesel generators and the placement of water hoses that could spray cooling water if they were knocked out. One good thing is all US plants share OE and work together for improvements if 1 has an issue all get informed about it.

At work we have had lots of study on Chernobyl and Fukushima to discuss what happened and why.

 

    It's a no brainer really.  Weather a Generator be Diesel, Gas, CNG, or magic fairy farts they don't start instantly and produce power.  There is a transistion/switch time from the moment they are 'summoned' to fire up and work until they are actually stabilized and producing.

In any situation in that period your Generators are not online yet.  This is why you either have batteries, your own power, or your F'd until the Generators are stabilized and on line.  (I know preaching to choir here). 

If your near a large body of water or prone to any other conditions that can take the Generators out all you have left is your batteries.  In the I.T. field batteries are meant to either carry a location long enough for emergency data saves, long enough to get a Generator deployed, or long enough for on site Generators to come on line. 

I really think Fukushima was the result of cost cutting.  Japanese in general are very good at designing stuff and redundancy.  Given that this was an area which did have a previous Tsunami and there where markers in the area noting this, plus EVERY MAN WOMAN AND CHILD knows the entire country is prone to earth quakes, mud slides and shifts, and that engineering will only get you so much....  Yeah, I really do believe this.  It's very common to see roof mounted Generators as well as Air Conditioning units all over.  Hospitals schools, etc.

That the Gen Set's weren't on the roofs is face palm #1.  That there wasn't a Batteries enough to carry to pumps and critical systems for an emergency shut down is face palm #2.  Again though I am guessing the original design called for this. 

 

 

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Severian

The Japanese have a curious relationship with nuclear power and nukes in general, being the only country ever to be nuked back in the war. I have to imagine it's an uncomfortable relationship, them and nuke power plants. Heck, the original Godzilla (which was much more serious than the follow-ons) was dark, as much a statement about helplessly cowering in fear during air raids and war as it was about nuclear testing. In his film "Dreams," Akira Kurosawa (a masterful director) had one vignette "Mount Fuji In Red" where a nuclear power plant on Fuji explodes, melting the mountain top and releasing tons of radiation. Kind of prescient since the movie came out in the 80's I believe.

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Dean Adam Smithee
19 minutes ago, oki said:

    It's a no brainer really.  Weather a Generator be Diesel, Gas, CNG, or magic fairy farts they don't start instantly and produce power.  There is a transistion/switch time from the moment they are 'summoned' to fire up and work until they are actually stabilized and producing.

In any situation in that period your Generators are not online yet.  This is why you either have batteries, your own power, or your F'd until the Generators are stabilized and on line.  (I know preaching to choir here). 

If your near a large body of water or prone to any other conditions that can take the Generators out all you have left is your batteries.  In the I.T. field batteries are meant to either carry a location long enough for emergency data saves, long enough to get a Generator deployed, or long enough for on site Generators to come on line. 

I really think Fukushima was the result of cost cutting.  Japanese in general are very good at designing stuff and redundancy.  Given that this was an area which did have a previous Tsunami and there where markers in the area noting this, plus EVERY MAN WOMAN AND CHILD knows the entire country is prone to earth quakes, mud slides and shifts, and that engineering will only get you so much....  Yeah, I really do believe this.  It's very common to see roof mounted Generators as well as Air Conditioning units all over.  Hospitals schools, etc.

That the Gen Set's weren't on the roofs is face palm #1.  That there wasn't a Batteries enough to carry to pumps and critical systems for an emergency shut down is face palm #2.  Again though I am guessing the original design called for this. 

 

 

Exactly. I see it all the time in the industrial controls world, on critical systems or anything where "life safety" is an issue. Every Server, PLC, whatever, has dual power supplies with one connected to the local utility and the other from a standby generator.... and a HYUGE-ass UPS to handle the switchover.

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zurg
1 hour ago, Severian said:

The Japanese have a curious relationship with nuclear power and nukes in general, being the only country ever to be nuked back in the war. 

Come to think of it, rather amazingly I haven’t read anyone attack that bombing as “they avoided bombing Germans because they didn’t want to kill that many White people because of white privilege” and start a whole new conspiracy from that. 

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Severian
14 minutes ago, zurg said:

Come to think of it, rather amazingly I haven’t read anyone attack that bombing as “they avoided bombing Germans because they didn’t want to kill that many White people because of white privilege” and start a whole new conspiracy from that. 

Silly, don't you know Asian Lives Don't Matter! See Yale and Harvard admission guidelines! They only matter if Trump is shutting down travel.

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zurg
5 minutes ago, Severian said:

Silly, don't you know Asian Lives Don't Matter! See Yale and Harvard admission guidelines! They only matter if Trump is shutting down travel.

:doh:

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oki
2 hours ago, Dean Adam Smithee said:

Exactly. I see it all the time in the industrial controls world, on critical systems or anything where "life safety" is an issue. Every Server, PLC, whatever, has dual power supplies with one connected to the local utility and the other from a standby generator.... and a HYUGE-ass UPS to handle the switchover.

 

   Let's not forget the 'heads will roll' and b$tch fest customers have(especially Gov) when stuff fails and the quick finger pointing/looking for someone to blame mentality until the signed agreement comes out and it's shown that they didn't order or specify a backup, or they decided to 'engineer' the back up but didn't have the knowledge to make sure it was true and not just on paper.  IE order a back up internet connection with a 2nd Company but not having the God given sense to say show me where your fibers come into the building, or showing them the design for the existing primary provider.  See this all the damn time, Johnny was a backup connection.  So Johnny goes and gets the cheapest provider he can find for a backup. connection  Company Backup has no idea of how the primary connection is buried so they sub lease a pair of fibers in the cable owned by guess who?  That's right Company A. 

So what happens when back ho Barry is in a hurry and has a belief they will be long gone by the time the phone company realizes what's happened and get's a crew out there?  That's right, the cable gets nailed and down goes Johnny.    See that quite often, hell even had a few cases  in which we where company A, then company B tried to blame us no less.  Where I work?  Primary and secondary power feeds from the local utility(geographically and sub station diverse), primary and secondary Generators, and a DC plant enough to carry everything(minus the Air Conditioning) for at least a couple minutes while the Generators come on line. 

 

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