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pepperonikkid

Trump Won the Battle Against Coronavirus, Bigly

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Dutch13
11 hours ago, Timothy said:



3) You're right that the 10th amendment is a big consideration, but there are still a lot of things he could have done.  The rollout of testing was bungled.  There are a lot of things the federal government could have aggressively pursued.  Maybe some states would have resisted, but I don't think they would have if the federal government was the one paying for it.  A robust contact tracing system.  Converting hotels into free facilities for people to isolate (including meals brought to them) instead of depending on people to self isolate.  Yes it would have cost a lot, but been far cheaper than dealing with the consequences.

4) This is on every branch of the federal government, but the stimulus funding should have been a lot more focused on keeping workers paid through their employers even if they weren't working and keeping businesses afloat while they were closed.  Effectively put those businesses on "pause" in a way that kept the financial impact of being closed neutral.

5) Provided money and a national program to move schools, especially elementary schools, outside.  Every park and school parking lot should have been converted into an outdoor school.

3)  Donald Trump is not a scientist.....even though he tried to play one on TV.  The rapid tests we have today are not really effective.   Even when you get tested, I would never bet the house that it will be accurate.   Donald Trump got covid and it was probably because of false negatives on the rapid test.

Nobody died because we didn't have tests.  Hell, even with tests, everybody that coughs or sneezes is treated like they have covid until they prove otherwise.

4)  The PPP was/is a good program for that.  I heard all the bitching on the news......but I submitted 22 loans for customers and 21 were approved and the companies got money to make payroll.  The problem was that the SBA got 100x their annual loan volume in a single week (I don't remember the exact figures, but that isn't far off).  Their systems were never designed for what they had to do. 

 Pelosi and the democrats were not going to pass a single thing that would have helped Donald Trump get elected.  Riots and anger were exactly what they wanted. 

5)  Elementary and middle/junior high schools aren't an issue.  Those kids need to be in school and every school in America was retro-fitted for covid protocols.  

Edited by Dutch13
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Taggart Transcontinental
11 hours ago, Timothy said:

Agreed.

A few thoughts:

1) I don't think "what he said" and "what he did" can be completely separated... a big part of his job with the virus, and of any President in any crises, is the messaging.  It had and has a real world impact on people's actions.  Masks became politicized in large part because of him.  So did other basic precautions.  More people taking basic precautions would have saved both jobs and lives.

2) Certainly people bore a lot of individual responsibility as well, and there are many other factors beyond what the President did and didn't do.  It's not all about the President, but he is a major factor.

3) You're right that the 10th amendment is a big consideration, but there are still a lot of things he could have done.  The rollout of testing was bungled.  There are a lot of things the federal government could have aggressively pursued.  Maybe some states would have resisted, but I don't think they would have if the federal government was the one paying for it.  A robust contact tracing system.  Converting hotels into free facilities for people to isolate (including meals brought to them) instead of depending on people to self isolate.  Yes it would have cost a lot, but been far cheaper than dealing with the consequences.

4) This is on every branch of the federal government, but the stimulus funding should have been a lot more focused on keeping workers paid through their employers even if they weren't working and keeping businesses afloat while they were closed.  Effectively put those businesses on "pause" in a way that kept the financial impact of being closed neutral.

5) Provided money and a national program to move schools, especially elementary schools, outside.  Every park and school parking lot should have been converted into an outdoor school.

1. Messaging is just messaging, when the media distorts that messaging intentionally there will never be positive results. (bleach, UV light etc) So don't talk to me about "messaging" when the media intentionally makes the message ridiculous.

2. Your second thought isn't a thought at all. People are responsible for themselves, that's it period. He don't own any of the responsibility. Since we live in a Republic where the States hold the majority of power. The POTUS has no, zero, zilch authority to order a state to do anything UNLESS he suspends the Constitution. Which would have been an immediate impeachment. He did what was his role. Stopped travel into the nation and worked at getting the needed supplies where they needed to be. AND went unused.

3. Roll out of testing? That's the responsibility of the CDC, NOT the POTUS. So I agree lets fire the CDC. What are all of those things the government could have done better? Could he have stopped the simulation and magic moved us to this place? He reduced regulation on a development of a vaccine. A process that takes years was done in 9 months, yet you cry about bungling? Sorry not buying it. Robust contact tracing system? What does that even mean? Federalized agents entering homes without warrants to force people into compliance? Is that your answer? It's ridiculous. Lets remember this is 99% survivable. That means it's not as big a deal as you leftists make it. Seizing private property? Is that your answer to everything? When that private property is used up and at the end of it's life, what happens to the property owners? Where do you get these free meals? Who brings them? Your answers are more attuned with China not the US. People have RIGHTS, or did you forget that?

The consequences are the destruction of the Constitution, and the establishment of a precedent where the Federal Government can violate it for any idiotic justification. Which is what you want anyway, you idiots are dying to declare a national emergency for globull warming, so you can seize all the means of production in the US anyway.

4. Pelosi dropped the ball on that intentionally, it's not on the POTUS, it's on her. She wanted to seize voting from the states unconstitutionally, so she lost that fight.

5. Schools? Really? Outdoor? What happens in rain, what happens in snow? Yes kids suck it up we can do it outdoors. Welcome to the time of Socrates. Sorry child we have schools open, I am an SRO, and we have had ZERO cases even with the "spike" in our state. We have been doing so since August. So thanks we are good.

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MontyPython

As for the tests themselves, we've had threads here concerning their unreliability. Remember the one where Elon Musk took four tests in one day, two of which turned out positive and two turned out negative? Or how about the young woman star (I'd never heard of her so I don't know if she was an actress or a singer) who took the test up both nostrils on the same day and one was positive, the other negative.

My point of course is that not only are a huge percentage of the deaths dishonestly attributed to covid, even the alleged "positive" tests are phony figures.

B) 

 

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Natural Selection
On 11/21/2020 at 9:24 PM, Timothy said:

We have the 12th highest number of deaths per capita worldwide.  

Let me guess.... You Blame Trump for not testing everyone and doing tracing/quarantine.

Did you know that way back in February, Trump's FDA  issued a new policy for certain laboratories seeking to develop diagnostic tests for coronavirus in order to achieve more rapid testing capacity in the U.S.?

(source)

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Natural Selection
On 11/22/2020 at 10:19 PM, Timothy said:

Since steps to limit the coronavirus also limit the flu, it's not at all a surprise that flu deaths are way down.

Since steps to limit the coronavirus also limit the flu, why are coronavirus deaths up and flu deaths down?

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Timothy
On 11/24/2020 at 11:48 PM, Joe the Pagan said:

Forget the rest of the world.  What do the states with the highest death rates all have in common?  Here is a hint.  It had nothing with decisions made by President Trump.  It does have some thing to do with the decisions of governors of the states with the highest death rates.  One particular decision.  

Maybe I should ask Monty.  I know I will get an honest answer out of him. 

I'm sure you're talking about the nursing homes issue.  Yes that was a mistake.

But a key factor you aren't considering is the fact that they also just got hit early.  Before we knew as much as we know now about the virus, before best practices with hospital treatments were developed, before we had had time to prepare, before testing had ramped up (meaning fewer cases were detected to dilute the death rate.)  And the main reason they got hit early probably has nothing to do with politics, but they are cities with tons of international travel, both foreigners travelling to the US and American citizens travelling to other countries.

And Covid-19 has a high "K" factor, meaning that some of it just comes down to luck.

On 11/25/2020 at 12:50 AM, MontyPython said:

 

Yes, I have indeed been paying attention to what's going on in the world. Have you looked at the north American maps displaying the centers of covid infections? Notice that arrow-straight line between the United States and Canada? Do you suppose the virus respects international borders? "Hey, we can't go over there! That's a different country!"

No, it's because, for purely partisan political reasons, here in America the "infection" rate (and especially the "death" rate) is being deliberately inflated with bogus crap. Got the yearly flu? COVID!! Fell down a flight of

stairs? COVID!! Crashed your motorcycle? COVID!! And on and on and on. Your arbitrary dismissal of the IMPOSSIBLE reduction of the yearly flu by 95% demonstrates your refusal to accept the political facet behind the ridiculously inflated covid numbers.

B) 

 

1) Regarding Canada vs the US: Canada and the United States have different health care systems, different governments, and somewhat different cultures.  In other words, Canada probably had a more effective response.  Other possible factors I pointed out in my response to Joe the Pagan above... more international travel, and even just luck.

2) The difference between Canada and the US is less than the difference between Germany and France, between Russia and China, between Sweden and Norway, between Austria and Italy.  Is that proof that France, Russia, Sweden, and Italy are deliberately inflating their numbers?

3) Even looking at Canada which has a smaller number of reported Covid-deaths per Capita than the US, Covid has been far more dangerous and deadly than the flu.  Canada has an estimated 3,500 flu deaths per year (source), but has had 11,710 Covid deaths.   In other words more than three times as many coronavirus deaths as flu deaths in a year, in a 9 month period, with lockdowns and other preventative measures.

4) Do you have any evidence to back up the claim that a 95% reduction is "impossible"?  And that even if flu deaths were being misattributed to Covid, that it's a big enough number to meaningfully impact the number of deaths?  I think a few thousand is a reasonable estimate, but even if it was 10,000 or 20,000, that would be less than 8% of reported Covid deaths.

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mjperry51
5 minutes ago, Timothy said:

I'm sure you're talking about the nursing homes issue.  Yes that was a mistake.

Mistake? Nice downplay. It was a travesty; a gross violation of any semblance of common sense.

6 minutes ago, Timothy said:

In other words more than three times as many coronavirus deaths as flu deaths in a year, in a 9 month period, with lockdowns and other preventative measures.

Or the treatment protocols in Canada were far less effective.

7 minutes ago, Timothy said:

Do you have any evidence to back up the claim that a 95% reduction is "impossible"?

Do you have any evidence it is?

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Timothy
On 11/25/2020 at 7:25 AM, Dutch13 said:

3)  Donald Trump is not a scientist.....even though he tried to play one on TV.  The rapid tests we have today are not really effective.   Even when you get tested, I would never bet the house that it will be accurate.   Donald Trump got covid and it was probably because of false negatives on the rapid test.

Nobody died because we didn't have tests.  Hell, even with tests, everybody that coughs or sneezes is treated like they have covid until they prove otherwise.

4)  The PPP was/is a good program for that.  I heard all the bitching on the news......but I submitted 22 loans for customers and 21 were approved and the companies got money to make payroll.  The problem was that the SBA got 100x their annual loan volume in a single week (I don't remember the exact figures, but that isn't far off).  Their systems were never designed for what they had to do. 

 Pelosi and the democrats were not going to pass a single thing that would have helped Donald Trump get elected.  Riots and anger were exactly what they wanted. 

5)  Elementary and middle/junior high schools aren't an issue.  Those kids need to be in school and every school in America was retro-fitted for covid protocols.  

I want to make two larger points first.

1) No preventative measure is going to be perfect.  The key point is having them add up:

ElGFFTwWMAETyhB?format=jpg&name=large
2) Absolute prevention of any new cases usually isn't the main goal, but preventing any outbreaks from growing exponentially.  If the average infected person infects less than one new person, an outbreak will eventually die out.

Risk assessment, and weighing relative risks, is important.  You'll never eliminate risk, the point is to reduce it.  Effective testing, contact tracing, and quarantines might not catch all cases.  But that isn't the point unless you're in a place like New Zealand and Taiwan where the number of cases is near zero and you want to keep it that way.  It's to reduce risk and transmission and keep it below zero.  Doing some easier measures well to reduce the spread (like good testing, contact tracing, and mask wearing) can reduce the need to take other more painful measures (closing businesses, social distancing.)

Directly responding to points:

3) In the context of points 1 and 2, obviously the more accurate the test is, the better.  But even tests that aren't very accurate can be very helpful in the right contexts.  The context of how testing is used matters a lot.  Testing isn't a cure all by itself, but it is an important part of making other strategies work.  A test may not be an absolute guarantee that someone could transmit or not transmit the virus, but it is a tool to reduce risk and more effectively target isolation measures by telling us who is more likely to have it than someone else.

4a) PPP did it to a large degree yes.  But not enough, and it hasn't been sustained like it should have been.  My issue isn't with the application difficulties but with the overall scope of the program.

4b) Addressing the "riot" issue which I forgot to address in my previous post.  I won't get into the politics of it ("riots" vs "protests") because that's beyond the scope of this thread.  But there is little evidence that they generated any serious outbreaks or growths in cases.  Primarily because they were almost all outside.  And in most cases, most or all of the participants wore masks.

5) Some Covid protocols were taken, but there's only so much you can do it when you keep it indoors.  Moving classes outside is by far the most effective step that can be taken to reduce transmission.  I will say that I see the failure to systematically move all classes outside as a failure at ALL levels of government.  Local, state and national.  Democratic and Republican.

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Natural Selection
4 minutes ago, Timothy said:

 

ElGFFTwWMAETyhB?format=jpg&name=large

I don't see herd immunity in there.

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Timothy
On 11/25/2020 at 7:40 AM, Taggart Transcontinental said:

1. Messaging is just messaging, when the media distorts that messaging intentionally there will never be positive results. (bleach, UV light etc) So don't talk to me about "messaging" when the media intentionally makes the message ridiculous.

2. Your second thought isn't a thought at all. People are responsible for themselves, that's it period. He don't own any of the responsibility. Since we live in a Republic where the States hold the majority of power. The POTUS has no, zero, zilch authority to order a state to do anything UNLESS he suspends the Constitution. Which would have been an immediate impeachment. He did what was his role. Stopped travel into the nation and worked at getting the needed supplies where they needed to be. AND went unused.

3. Roll out of testing? That's the responsibility of the CDC, NOT the POTUS. So I agree lets fire the CDC. What are all of those things the government could have done better? Could he have stopped the simulation and magic moved us to this place? He reduced regulation on a development of a vaccine. A process that takes years was done in 9 months, yet you cry about bungling? Sorry not buying it. Robust contact tracing system? What does that even mean? Federalized agents entering homes without warrants to force people into compliance? Is that your answer? It's ridiculous. Lets remember this is 99% survivable. That means it's not as big a deal as you leftists make it. Seizing private property? Is that your answer to everything? When that private property is used up and at the end of it's life, what happens to the property owners? Where do you get these free meals? Who brings them? Your answers are more attuned with China not the US. People have RIGHTS, or did you forget that?

The consequences are the destruction of the Constitution, and the establishment of a precedent where the Federal Government can violate it for any idiotic justification. Which is what you want anyway, you idiots are dying to declare a national emergency for globull warming, so you can seize all the means of production in the US anyway.

4. Pelosi dropped the ball on that intentionally, it's not on the POTUS, it's on her. She wanted to seize voting from the states unconstitutionally, so she lost that fight.

5. Schools? Really? Outdoor? What happens in rain, what happens in snow? Yes kids suck it up we can do it outdoors. Welcome to the time of Socrates. Sorry child we have schools open, I am an SRO, and we have had ZERO cases even with the "spike" in our state. We have been doing so since August. So thanks we are good.

1) I actually agree with you that the media is partially at fault for amplifying stupid things Trump said to make him look bad.  But most of the time the media didn't need to make it "look" ridiculous, it WAS ridiculous.  The most responsible thing the media could have done was just stop reporting on anything Trump said.

2) Like it or not, many people take their queue from how things are messaged to them.  There are many tasks that only the federal government has the resources to effectively do, especially in a crises.

3) So many issues here I won't get to all of them.  From what I know, I think the administration has handled the vaccine side of things of well.  The process for ramping up testing could have started weeks/months earlier.  Contact tracing isn't about breaking into people's homes or seizing property (what would be the point of that?) but apps on phones, getting contact information about the people they've been around and getting those contacts to be tested/quarantine.

As for who pays for the hotel rooms and meals?  The federal government.  And by limiting the spread of the virus and giving the economy more room to go back to normal, it would almost certainly end up SAVING money.  We've spent TRILLIONS to mitigate the economic impact of the pandemic.  An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.  Would you rather have a system for contact tracing or widespread business closures?

4) I don't enough care to get into the weeds on this.

5)
 image.png.330409e15c9837a07421e81e0e9e10df.png

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Timothy

And with that I'm done for the day.  Y'all have a good Thanksgiving!

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